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2:03 PM
@tb Thanks for the links. That explains a lot.
 
@robjohn For xypic I wanted to link here
@robjohn Can you give a link for that answer?
(I'm in the mood for some analysis now, after all that abstract nonsense)
 
the contour integration?
 
Exactly
 
@tb: I added to this question, since my answer uses contour integration. I would really like to see the OP's purported solution.
 
@robjohn Nice and clean, thanks! You just gave me back my belief that math is a pleasant thing to do, after all :) I don't see how the Fourier transform helps at the moment, but I'd need to think a little bit more.
 
2:17 PM
@tb The fact that the domain of integration is $[0,\infty)$ makes me wonder.
 
"You just gave me back my belief that math is a pleasant thing to do, after all" - :D
 
@JM you have a difference of opinion? :-)
 
None whatsoever. :) I'm too easily pleased.
 
leo
hi everybody!
 
@leo hello! whatsup?
that's like catsup, but different
 
2:22 PM
Hey.
 
Is there any particular site that's good for learning math? Specifically I'm looking into (beginner to intermediate) set theory at the moment.
 
@AsafKaragila He just got Strunk and White. I'm looking forward to 20 more edits, then the brown thingie will pop up a lot less, I think :)
 
Oh boy. Asaf, are you taking prospective vict- er, students?
 
leo
@robjohn :). I prefer catsoup
 
@leo I won't ask for the recipe...
we have 3 cats.
they would be worried if I had such a recipe.
 
2:28 PM
@Incognito I don't know if this fits the bill. Personally, I'm fond of Kaplansky's Set theory and Metric spaces. People seem to like Enderton's and Halmos's books a lot. See also the recommendations here
Hi, leo
 
Whee! another revival badge! I didn't realize that this problem was a month old until after I had almost finished my answer.
Hmmm... the other was a Necromancer badge for an answer on meta
 
@tb Thanks for the links :)
 
@Incognito that's why he's The Bomb :-)
not Theobromine as some claim :-)
 
What good symbol for a partial order which the students won't complain is hard to draw ($\preceq$ would be too similar to $\le$ for them)
 
leo
I did not know that the \tag command to number equations is supported
that's great
 
2:35 PM
@leo It is :-)
 
@AsafKaragila Why does it have to be hard to draw?
 
leo
I see
:)
 
@leo Here is a complete list of stuff you can use in MathJax.
2
 
$$\smile\tag{1}$$
 
leo
@JM Thanks
 
2:37 PM
@JM I have that page bookmarked!
 
@JM It would've been nice to see the corresponding symbol rendered on that list.
 
@AsafKaragila how about something like $\stackrel{\large\lt}{\sim}$ (I don't know if there's a proper command for that, I just used $\stackrel{\large\lt}{\sim}$)
 
No no... I'm looking for something which is easy to draw, but is different than $\le$
@tb $\lesssim$? We use that for cardinality ordering. I can't use that.
 
$\ll$
 
@Matt Well, not all of 'em are symbols; stuff like \mathbb are modifiers.
 
2:38 PM
Argh.
 
Bravo!
@AsafKaragila How about $\stackrel{\large\lhd}{-}$? ordinary LaTeX has this as \unhld
 
@AsafKaragila How about $\stackrel{\text{Yo momma}}{\leq} $?
 
@Matt Equality up to your mother? I like it. But no.
 
Corrected it.
 
:P
Time to cruise the symbols-a4.pdf file...
 
2:42 PM
@tb besides $\lesssim$ as Asaf suggests, there is $\precsim$
 
@AsafKaragila I would still stick to \precsim and let them use lots and lots of \xi's and \zeta's
 
if you like the curly things.
 
\xi is tricky to write when you're in a hurry... :D
 
@tb Also $\Xi$ with $\equiv$ symbols!
I went for $\unlhd$
 
I used $\lesseqqgtr$ in a post recently
 
2:45 PM
Does everyone here have a browser extension that renders this text?
 
@Incognito See the top starred message.
 
@Incognito That answer was the one that got me the Necromancer badge. :-)
 
@AsafKaragila What was that famous example $\dfrac{\overline{\Xi}}{\Xi}$?
 
@robjohn You were looking for an excuse to use it, weren't you? Confess! :D
 
@tb Yeah, something from one of those hilarious MO threads :-)
 
2:47 PM
@AsafKaragila Interesting, I have a similar proposal on meta, they may have some common ground, as mine is about letting room owners make plugins based on a trust model for almost exactly this sort of thing.
 
@JM Srivatsan twisted my arm, really :-D
 
@AsafKaragila I think I heard about that from Douady at the Cartan centennial
(but I'm not sure)
 
I shall return to my quest writing an exercise set in which I can slowly wade them into proving that the canonical ordering on $\mathbb N\times\mathbb N$ is isomorphic to $\mathbb N$ with the usual ordering - without explicitly finding the function.
 
@AsafKaragila I saw that question earlier. No luck yet?
 
About how to do it? I have an idea.
I will let them prove that a linear ordering which every initial segment is finite has to be isomorphic to the natural numbers.
 
2:49 PM
@AsafKaragila Is the canonical ordering on $\mathbb{N}\times\mathbb{N}$ something like lexicographic ordering?
 
 
@JM Good find!
 
@robjohn Nope. You compare the maximum, and then the coordinates.
 
@AsafKaragila So how does that apply to $(1,2)$ and $(2,1)$?
 
@robjohn Maximum is the same, so we compare the left coordinate, therefore $(1,2)<(2,1)$.
 
2:56 PM
Ah, so if the maximum is the same, then it is lexicographic.
 
Yeah.
 
you're looking at the square corners map from $\mathbb{N}\leftrightarrow\mathbb{N}\times\mathbb{N}$
first filling the horizontal (left to right) then the vertical (bottom to top)
 
It's close to the Cantor pairing function which they saw, but it's different and I don't want to make them find a function on their own.
 
$
\begin{array}{}
1&4&9&16\\
2&3&8&15\\
5&6&7&14\\
10&11&12&13
\end{array}
$
 
3:03 PM
Does that mean: People have to go there in order to find out and if they didn't find out it means they're not interested enough anyway?
 
@tb Area51 didn't generate enough interest in a Mathematica-specific Q&A site. Phira is upset that the users who were attached to the proposal were not notified it it being denied.
So, since the proposal failed and nobody is notified, only the persons who follow it closely will notice.
 
@robjohn ?
 
@Incognito Okay. Thanks. As I suspected, then.
 
@AsafKaragila That's the ordering you were talking about, I believe.
no, $(2,2)>(2,1)$ oops
 
Hey robjohn
Hi tb
 
3:09 PM
@Srivatsan welcome back!
 
@robjohn shrug
 
@JM Should we make the infinite arithmetic-geometric series question an faq?
 
@tb I had no idea Robert closed that proposal until I was lazily browsing Area 51, so there's that.
@Srivatsan Which?
 
@robjohn I got a nice question to ask in the main site: regarding the inequality one.
 
@tb A bit perverse, no?
 
3:11 PM
@JM One of these type of questions: math.stackexchange.com/questions/92224. Whichever has the best answers.
 
@Srivatsan okay :-)
@Asaf: this is the order you mentioned, I believe:$
\begin{array}{}
1&3&7&13\\
2&4&8&14\\
5&6&9&15\\
10&11&12&16
\end{array}
$
 
I am not sure how to decipher that.
 
Meanwhile: I apparently missed the neat comment after mine since I only read the thread once before.
 
@robjohn I will just state it: If you plot the triplet (AM, GM, HM) of all possible positive $n$-tuples of numbers, then what region will you get? For $n=2$, the answer is simple (since $A \cdot H = G^2$). I am working on $n=3$. I have no clue about 4 and beyond.
 
@AsafKaragila $\mathbb{N}\times\mathbb{N}$ as the $(x,y)$ location and $\mathbb{N}$ as the content
 
3:14 PM
@robjohn Where is $0$? :-)
 
@Srivatsan Sounds like a good question for main...
 
@AsafKaragila Oh, so you include $0$ in $\mathbb{N}$... then subtract $1$ from my entries :-p
 
@Srivatsan I agree that we need an FAQ for this.
 
@JM What can I say? It's definitely not the proper way to treat people who invested a lot of time for a company whose air to breathe rests on the fact that there are people willing to do this.
 
@robjohn :-)
 
3:16 PM
@Srivatsan Good question.
 
@t.b. Yeah. Oh well...
 
@AsafKaragila I like this one better since the squares are on the diagonal.
 
@robjohn (If you are wondering why this is related to the inequality, then read Zarrax's answer in that thread.)
 
@robjohn Yes, quite.
 
@JM I nominate this and this.
 
3:23 PM
Ack! I hate it when the good answers are spread across different questions. It's not unlike the situation with the subfactorials...
 
@Srivatsan Those are all examples of $\sum_{n=0}^\infty\binom{n}{k}x^n=\frac{x^k}{(1-x)^{k+1}}$
 
@robjohn But your series is not really frequently asked... =)
 
@Srivatsan but it applies very often in one form or another.
 
@robjohn So FAA -- frequently applicable answers?
 
@robjohn Are you proposing asking a fresh question? Or are you proposing that you will write an answer to one of these two questions generalising the question?
 
3:26 PM
e.g. $\sum n^2x^n$
@Srivatsan Trying to unify the answers perhaps
 
I think a general question is in order. (We still need one for derangements/subfactorials, BTW.)
 
@JM But how do we collect together all the answers? There a lot of nice answers already. I don't think it is wise to lose any of them...
 
@Srivatsan This site is not really set up to handle a compendium of knowledge about a given topic. I guess a Wiki question could house such a beast.
 
@Srivatsan Oh no, losing them would be a bad idea! But a CW "catalog" might be nice...
 
@JM just what I was suggesting
 
3:29 PM
@JM How about: Merge those two threads, and make the question general, instead of asking for a particular series.
Or, in addition to a particular example, ask for the general method.
 
@Srivatsan I was just about to suggest that. jcb hasn't shown up in quite a while, so I guess he could take it.
 
@Srivatsan That's what I've often wondered about the statement about "merging answers" when a question is closed as a duplicate.
 
@robjohn I think the mods can merge two threads. That's not an issue, I hope.
 
I have to go walk the dog. bbl
 
3:31 PM
@Srivatsan is that something the mods are willing to do, and has it been done anywhere?
 
See the link I just gave
 
@robjohn It is a pain, from what I understand. See tb's link.
OR, another way would be: just don't worry about duplicating the efforts. Ask a fresh question.
 
@Srivatsan $\text{yes}^3$ (I've now been told to read tb's link 3 times :-)
 
@robjohn Yes, do read it. For the last time, just read it right away... =)
 
@Srivatsan :-p
@Srivatsan I have read it, now I have to read it 4 more times :-D but first I have to walk my dog
 
@robjohn Bye.
 
@magma: what was that about?
 
The frustrating thing is that the second series question should've been closed as a duplicate... =)
 
Whenever people complain about something in math they always sound as if they know very little, if at all, about it.
 
3:43 PM
@AsafKaragila Well, I do have a few complaints about mathematics myself... :D
 
I don't like it when people say "How do/does ... look like?" But if I correct it someone might start a meta thread.
 
@JM I can guess that none of those are about chemistry.
 
Anyone familiar with latex here ?=)
 
The one from which they make condoms?
 
@AsafKaragila Certainly. ;)
 
I think if I had been told what he's been told I'd never use SE again.
 
My interpretation: How do we determine if a 2-D graph is symmetric about some line, like $y=2x+6$?
 
@JM And you're still waiting patiently... :)
 
@JM I just noticed. Your accept rate is not that great. =)
 
3:53 PM
@Srivatsan I know. I still haven't gotten answers I want, like with the Reuleaux or matrix AGM questions...
 
Just kidding. I do not know what the ideal accept rate is, anyway...
 
@Srivatsan I know you were kidding. :) At least I'm answering questions in the interim...
 
@JM You do not want to try MO?
 
@Srivatsan Somehow I'm not sure about those being at MO, so I'm fine with them being here for now.
(speaking of MO, I've overtaken Arturo! :D )
 
@JM Congrats! :)
 
4:03 PM
@JM So you're still behind me on MO?
 
@AsafKaragila Sorry for not liking set theory too much... :P
 
@JM It's a major fault in you, I know. I forgive you, though. :-P
 
4:21 PM
hi guys, good evening
 
Hi Clash.
 
@tb Isn't countable subadditivity always true?
Oh sorry.
 
@Srivatsan No, there are finitely additive probability measures on $\mathbb{N}$
 
I am not sure what the OP means by $P$.
 
I'm pretty sure he means a probability. I believe he's asking why some people want to do probability with finitely additive measures instead of using Kolmogorov's axioms.
 
4:29 PM
one sec. I am quite confused now. I see I am wrong somewhere, not where...
 
@Srivatsan Could you please add the functional-analysis tag back again to the question you just edited?
 
if I could interrupt shortly, I'd like to calculate the intersection between two vector subspaces U1 and U2. U1 = [v1, v2, v3] and U2 = [w1, w2, w3], where $v_1, v_2, v_3, w_1, w_2, w_3 \in \mathbb R^5$. Is this the way to do it? a*v1 + b*v2 + c*v3 = d*w1 + e*w2 + f*w3
 
@tb Gee, that was a parallel edit.
 
@tb : are you free for a couple of min ?
i have a question
 
@Srivatsan Ah, I see. Thanks! We can discuss the probability thing a bit later because I need to take care that I don't starve over the week-end. BBL
@RajeshD See above
 
4:33 PM
@tb Sure, thanks.
@tb Actually, it's not a parallel edit, because you have edited it 19 mins before. But I can swear I in fact added the Banach-spaces tag to the post. Not sure what's happened. Sorry anyway.
 
fine tb have a nice eat out
someone have a look at it
@Sri : Whats your fav activity on math.SE ?
 
@RajeshD No idea what you mean.
 
@Sri : i mean how do you like to spend time on math.SE ?
 
@RajeshD I don't understand. What do you expect? Reading questions? Trying to answer?
 
yes
and chatting etc
 
4:46 PM
@RajeshD You want me to designate a single activity, is it?
 
nope
i just felt like asking what part you like....for example i like asking questions that bug me
and get some interesting and informative answers
@Sri never mind if you don't feel like answering because you don't have one in mind
 
Writing a nice answer, I guess.
 
cool
 
@RajeshD I am also a bit moody right now. Nothing to do with your questioning me =)
 
8-).
 
4:54 PM
@JonasTeuwen How do you do, Jonas?
 
Fine. I'm drinking a nice Glenlivet 12 yr. How are you?
 
With or without cheese?
 
@JM Hum, cheese...
 
@JM Without. Duh.
 
do you put cheese in whisky ?
 
4:57 PM
@JM The port was with cheese and figs.
 
Is it whisky or wine?
 
Whisky of course.
When it would be wine it would have said 1999.
 
@JonasTeuwen :) Anyway, you seemed to need special functions help a few hours ago?
 
But then it wouldn't sound Scottish either...
@JM Oh :-). Nothing in particular but I'm trying to solve some physics problems where I have needed stuff like Bessel functions. I just want to know what a modern reference book for this subject would be.
 
Why does he address some people as Prof. X and some by just the name?
 
4:59 PM
@JonasTeuwen I'm so glad they've met...
3
 
@Srivatsan Yes, sorry.
 
@JonasTeuwen Well, the veritable resource is still Watson's. Most of the books nowadays treat Bessel as a special case of the hypergeometric function.
 
@JM Oh, but I probably need to construct some of those for this purpose, like Zernike polynomials.
What is the problem with treating the Bessel functions as a special case?
 
Zernike is actually an adapted Jacobi polynomial. :)
@JonasTeuwen It's not a problem in my book, but if you just want to concentrate on Bessels, it might be a bit much.
 
No, I just want to study special functions :-). I happen to have needed Zernike polynomials and Bessel functions.
 
5:03 PM
Oh, so you're fine with broad strokes? :) Well, I'll recommend Carlson, Temme, and Andrews/Askey/Roy for starters.
 
Let me check that out.
 
If you just need a compendium of identities, that's where Abramowitz and Stegun, the DLMF, and the Wolfram Functions site come in.
 
oh @JM you are a chatting encyclopedia !
 
Could you narrow that down to one or two books? 8-). I'll just pick up those two then at the library.
 
(I don't remember any of them treating Zernike polynomials, though. Those seem pretty localized to optical applications. But you can use Jacobi identities for those.)
@JonasTeuwen In that case, Carlson's and Temme's.
 
5:06 PM
"Special functions of applied mathematics" and "Special Functions, An Introduction to the Classical Functions of Mathematical Physics"?
Oh, that Temme guy is Dutch.
 
@JonasTeuwen Yep, from CWI.
@JonasTeuwen Those are the books. :)
 
@JM You remember the universities where the authors work? =)
 
@Srivatsan Not everybody... :)
 
@Sri : are you trying to test JM ?
 
Hmm, Temme's book is reserved. I'll get it 10 january. The other one I'll get on monday.
 
5:08 PM
@JM Random quiz: do you know where Needham is? =)
 
@Srivatsan Sorry, no. :) All I know is he's in Britain.
@JonasTeuwen How about the Andrews/Askey/Roy book, then, in the interim?
 
[Just kidding about the quiz.] Anyway, his webpage.
 
Ooh, he's in San Francisco now... :)
 
@JM Got it! There is actually a course on special functions using that book I see.
 
@Jonas : why do you need Bessel functions, to me they are the cumbersome and most idiotic things.
 
5:12 PM
:'(.
 
@RajeshD Really!?
 
@RajeshD ...I'm not sure why you say that.
 
I would like closed form expressions for some of my integrals rite?
 
i hated them when i studied FM radio
 
Cumbersome, maybe. The other piece though, I object to that.
 
5:13 PM
Plus they often occur as solutions to the wave equation.
 
yes i was a bit carried away
 
That alone makes them interesting.
 
i take it back
 
Frankly, if you are going to hold such an extreme opinion, I think you'll be better off not saying it aloud =)
2
 
@RajeshD Unless you can conceive of an antenna geometry that isn't cylindrical, then you can't avoid Bessel.
Unfortunately for you, cylindrical coordinates can sometimes be hard to avoid.
 
5:15 PM
@JM What forces us then to choose cylindrical geometry?
 
@Jonas : I am sorry if i have demotivated you
 
You did not. You have only made a fool out of yourself. (slightly)
7
No worries.
 
I'll use the antenna example: you can consider the antenna to be radiating waves radially, except at the top of the antenna.
That's essentially cylindrical geometry there.
If you make the necessary separation of variables in the requisite PDEs, Bessel's ODE can pop up.
There's also something similar when you consider the stray waves from a straight piece of wire that's carrying current.
 
He mentions "Abramowitz and Stegun's Handbook of Mathematical Functions". Is that still a good handbook for that?
 
@JonasTeuwen There's some stuff in there that isn't in the DLMF. And I'm not talking about the tables... :)
 
5:21 PM
Curious: there are only three people in the chatroom besides Jonas, yet four stars =)
 
@JonasTeuwen I loved that essay. :)
 
Oh the special functions guy of our group mentions this on his website: dlmf.nist.gov.
 
@Sri : forget it
do not count me in it
 
I'll love special functions I think. I like syntax manipulation.
 
@JonasTeuwen Great, I won't feel lonely anymore... :)
 
5:24 PM
@Srivatsan One's from me. I'm not really here, I had to lie down for a while after eating a piece of chocolate cake which seems to have upset my stomach. Either that or I'm coming down with something.
 
@Jonas: also you've already used Hermite polynomials for your harmonic analysis work. You could say that your toes are already in the water...
 
Yeah.
They are eigenfunctions to my beloved Ornstein-Uhlenbeck operator.
 
I see. I'm more used to them as a. stuff related to the error function, b. their roots being helpful with Gaussian quadrature, and c. part of the analytical treatment of the harmonic oscillator.
 
Yes.
The harmonic oscillator is just the Ornstein-Uhlenbeck operator.
 
Oh, so that is what it's called? :D Apparently we were speaking different languages...
 
5:29 PM
$Lf = \Delta f - x \cdot \nabla f$.
 
(Maybe I'll now be able to understand you the next time you mention it... :) )
 
8-).
 
@JonasTeuwen Yes, yes... what shows up when you specialize Schrödinger. :D
 
Exactly.
 
...we are going to get along much better than before... :)
 
5:33 PM
:).
 
Hey guys
 
Hey.
I'm really chuffed that people like my SVD answer...
 
Oh, I haven't seen it. Can you link to it?
 
Hi @tb.
 
...I really wanted to use Lenna as an example, but too bad I'm not on my Mathematica computer.
@tb This
 
5:37 PM
Heh, it's a good feeling to come home from the freezing cold and see that you've got a bounty earned. :)
 
@tb You managed to get your groceries?
 
@JM Yeah. It was horrible. People are in their Christmas frenzy.
Thanks for the link.
 
@tb That thread reminds me of a variant of "you miss one [traffic] light, and you miss them all" that I told my son (when he was 8): "You miss one stop sign, and you miss them all" This really bothered him because he knows that you miss (have to stop at) all stop signs. I guess he was inferring a causality implication from my variant. The truth of the vacuousness was lost on him.
@JonasTeuwen That is elliptic close to the origin, is that the OU operator?
 
@robjohn I'll confess to that bothering me too as a kid... :)
 
5:52 PM
@JM I guess when first learning the informal logic in language, we infer causality where there is none. I think that is why the variant seemed amusing to me and why it was bothersome to my son.
 
...and now you've reminded me of one of my favorite math.SE answers.
 
@robjohn Nice. I remember that I was confused quite a while about double negations à la "I don't do nothing"...
 
hey guys, can someone help me understand an answer? http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/25371/how-to-find-basis-for-intersection-of-two-vector-spaces
how did he solve it? for example for x, how did he find x=1?
 
@JM that is an excellent plain language explanation of why $P\;\wedge\sim P$ implies anything.
 

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