hi all thx for all the great chats. great to see this & some other SE chat rooms livening up recently. inspired to come up with some ideas from 3yr experience/ participation in misc SE chat rooms. suggestions/ feedback welcome — cool chatting session tips / stackexchange profile tips
@vzn ok, I have seen it earlier, especially part where you use small letters... It is just long-ish as one piece.
@vzn anyway, I was poking (proper word?) to ask you about ideas - there are a lot of games, chess, go, good engines etc.
But how can we measure current state? I mean heuristics, tables, calc forward moves - but even with heuristics we use calculated earlier partial results, so it begs for horizon effect.
So... do you know any games where the order does not matter? Like hex, but easier, or games where current state is very good description of who wins?
deep NNs can now "score" games better than humans. there is some application of them to diverse games eg chess. in fact (well concealed trivia here) it appears a chess reinforcement learning program may have been the precursor to alphago.
Ok, so it is one way to go, I was rather looking for some game where calculating who is winning is doable from the current board state, so program wouldn't be too involving and people playing would show what they are doing
@vzn I meant to know who is winning, but we do not have perfect strategy for chess yet, so counting pieces and giving weights is far too bad. No aftermatch for chess game - too long experiment, I am looking for easier game.
It was taking too long to present possible moves and too long to generate them
It was exhausting for player - time consuming, so it was not good to perform many games. Also too hard to definitively tell strategy
I did Chess, checkers, will try Hex, will not try go.
Checkers - draughts, different rules, but the only pattern is people reduced the space, with rule that you have to beat, so... initial phase is like get rid of 3/4 ply and then start playing...
Optimum is more than 25 games played per person, I could not do more than 5 chess games in one day - this is the problem. Very good idea is "hey that is my fish", but too heavy for AI
So I am looking for game, which is easier for computer, but involving for human.
And there is the thing, like with sokonan games, it is easy to order games by number of moves, but it is not correlated with difficulty.
I hope you know what I mean?
Oh, putting it another way - number of lookahead moves in chess is not enough to control difficulty.
@vzn I do not do in classroom anything connected with private research, nothing even slightly helpful for me, they have to learn certain topics, I do different things outside, those things do not collide.
@EvilJS huh? just go back and read your own words sometimes & see if they all make sense...?
hey so how big is your class anyway? why did you say the teacher was unavailable, what happened there?
@EvilJS are you saying chess (even without software involved) requires too much mental exertion by subjects for your experiments? anyway even halfway decent chess code can generate moves quickly, so it would only be somewhat amateur or poorly written code that takes too long to evaluate positions...
@vzn about 30 students, he had car accident, alive, recovering, will be fine.
@vzn I mean that showing stimuli is involving, time consuming. No, poorly written ai player is fast and works good enough. Better player is not that much slower, the main problem is showing results and that tweaking difficulty level is hard - increase in lookahead, some constants, preference of one ply (like knight) over another (like rook) is not easy to manipulate difficulty - for human to give him involving enough game, but not that hard enough, so he could win.
If you change 12 levels depth to 13 levels, this is not exactly linear increase in difficulty, also some moves may be expected by human player for different reasons than his lookahead. So I cannot even guarantee that separate games for the same player are at the same level, so the results are tainted.
@EvilJS there are different ways to set up experiments as you know, its called experimental design so maybe there are ways to redo the chess experiments that decrease problematic human load or whatever. anyway chess is an excellent choice & theres tons of scientific material/ investigation/ literature on it, but also maybe some other game(s) might work better etc, dont know what you are attempting to analyze/ research in particular... eeg of human game playing?
suggest maybe start by describing clearly the scientific question you are attempting to answer...
re +1 the ad, it only needs 6 total which it has recently but yeah its a delicate balance, a sometimes seesawing-nailbiting contest, & if any more naysayers/ partypoopers show up, it will need more help from the turing fan club:P
@EvilJS do you think anyone would know what you mean by "hey that is my fish"??!? EJS no offense but it cant be me, several others have trouble understanding you on here. hey, we want to understand/ communicate with you/ help/ engage, so if you write clearer, it works out better for everyone right?
I am tracking emotions and activity connected with decision making, you are right that rethinking the setting of experiment is good idea, but there are things I cannot surpass - I have no idea how good player is from just several games.
@EvilJS ok it might help if you at least occasionally write up your experiments somewhere/ somehow. was just chatting with sig other and mentioning that it would be cool to read some of your scientific research results/ analysis. how many years have you been doing this? you must have tons of unpublished data... remember a key part of real science™ is communication of results
I belived it is known, since it has got high complexity and there are lots of student projects about this game.
@vzn this experiments involving EEG for about three years now, yeah, tons of data, ideas and experiments, but there are some problems - the same problem - the metodology vastly differs, I just cannot cope with people who put lots of noise into data by some ancient ideas...
exactly :) anyway think you have enough to publish and have had enough for a long time, so highly encourage you not to be a perfectionist about that. have seen this happen to others... have anecdotes/ stories etc
but, also, ofc publishing is not mandatory for personal prjs etc
think even a blog would count as publishing, but whatever
@EvilJS lol. uh, since you ask, she had a very tiny detectable grin )( there with your words. she said that many men would want to be with her and that the mere words "sig other" are not full/ enough appreciation of her awesomeness :P
that reminds me of an interesting psychology paper was just reading you might enjoy this/ find it interesting. it turned up recently on reddit... let me dig it up
Some time ago there was debate whether Rorschach test gives any results that we can count on, some time later there was data mining boom with trying to correlate fMRI or other fancy techniques with anything - both are not science per se.
And epilepsy contests - fit your NN to help predict seizured, the most of them - overfitted nets. Oh, and now there is this thing about lying detector and thermal camera. I have feeling that any fancy enough equipement with literally any idea goes into the world, tv and other. But this is so wrong on so many levels =.=
it mentions "lie detector test" and says its a misnomer because there are only "physiological arousal detector tests" and that the correlation/ causation is not rigorously proven etc
have not heard of mao-a drugs. didnt see that in the paper. what pg? gotta run nice chatting dude hope you can at least announce this chat room/ site to your class sometime :)
yes good point about "intentional fiction creation". lie detection has a tricky philosophical status. imagine thought experiment of a writer intentionally creating a fiction story. would that trigger a lie detector? etc
@EvilJS omg, lol crazy feature of that web pg— just showed the page numbering is browser/ screen dependent. have an ipad and flipped it portrait vs vertical & it changes from 63 to 73 pgs and the pg boundaries/ content is different. 21st century science gotta luv it @#%& geez :P
oh and the search function only seems to be within a single pg, how convenient :P
@vzn mao-a and mao-b are enzymes. Maoi - monoamine oxidase inhibitors - one of the oldest antidepressants, rarely usef for atypical, drug resistant types.
Two problems occured - thinking that mao is behaviour determinant and second, there is no evidence up to now, that maoi are actually antidepressants. Newer versions includes SSRI - selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors - but there are things like "prozac" which was never proved to be working, but for sure is addictive...
And the dramatic failure with maoi - not mentioned in pdf you gave, those are heavy, hepatotoxic drugs, affecting thinking, behaviour (hence the idea that this is that much connected), but usage is extremely hard - person administered must be on watch for at least 72h, because in the first phase it drastically increase suicidal attempts ~.~, it become known only after hundreds of suicides =.="
