/dev/chat

2:48 AM

@mikeserv Thanks

mikeserv

@FaheemMitha my pleasure.

6:06 AM

@FaheemMitha Appears like it'd belong on Stack Overflow, except it should just be closed for lacking detail.

I just added the 5th close vote.

Q: Please suspend thisisjnd for serial cross-posting

6:40 AM

btw, since pinging Michael here didn't work, I made a meta post about our little cross-poster.

0

The title sums it all up. thisisjnd has cross-posted multiple times on Stack Overflow, IT Security and here. Also, he posts the same question on the same site a second (or third) time, leading to duplicates. I'm not going to bother linking to all the questions, because it's super easy to find by ...

@strugee flag it ;)

@Braiam I have on SO and itsec

here I just voted to close

@slm just fyi, tomorrow (the 22nd) is a week from when I posted my article

if you want to keep with a schedule

Q: Is the Unix C API still on-topic?

@strugee I think I would have used the contact page to send that one, personally...

You've sort of opened yourself up to retaliation. If you care.

Also, as long as we're posting our meta questions:

0

According to Unix C API calls ontopic? and the help center, "UNIX C API and System Interfaces ( within reason )" is explicitly on topic. That within reason links to the meta question. Mounting a file system using a C program seems to fall within that. Note that: mount(2) is seems like a common...

discussion help-center off-topic

@derobert honestly I doubt he's going to go on meta and look for it

@FaheemMitha on that topic, I've seen several bug reports about kde/qt applications failing

6:51 AM

he clearly doesn't understand the SE model even remotely enough to realize the purpose of meta

I switched it to "seems to be within that", for clarity

btw guys, if you see a "learning resources" question, use the OT flag instead with a custom reason. That may move some cogs into action

@strugee your comment on your answer, was that in response to @Braiam or me?

n/m, I see you edited in the @

I think that discussion will end in "how is the question phrased" and we will get tangled in a series of nuances about the wording with subsequent questions

@derobert yep. race conditions may apply.

7:21 AM

Anyway, I got rid of some delete. Bed time, see you all tomorrow.

8:15 AM

@derobert Good question. There is definitely some lack of clarity here.

@derobert ok.

@Braiam I see. Do any of the others look relevant to this one?

A: Is the Unix C API still on-topic?

8:27 AM

@derobert my 2 cents

0

Having looked at this question, it is pretty clearly about Unix system programming, which would be in C by definition, but which is a small subset of C programming. This belongs on a Unix site if anything does, in my opinion. I'd suggest adding a clarification/exception to the no programming rule...

1:29 PM

Hi guys.

The line libext2fs.so.2 => /opt/appassure/lib64/libext2fs.so.2 (0x00007f7c126fc000) looks suspicious. Why is this installed in /opt? — Faheem Mitha 1 min ago

Oracle Linux is RHEL based.

1:46 PM

How does one find out what package a file belong to?

rpm -qa filename or similar?

I installed Dell AppAssure (backup software) with the install.sh they provide. That's all. I can't answer why it's installed in /opt ... What can I do ? Sorry for being so newbie — Nico 2 mins ago

What is Dell AppAssure and why are they installing libext2fs?

3:12 PM

Speaking of on/off-topic, I don't see why this got closed either.

0

Q: User id in kernel module

I'm trying to intercept clone system call so that i could print user id and process id before actual system call executes. I am using get_user_id()->uid to access user id in kernel module but it returns user id in kuid_t type which I can not cast to int. Is there any other way to do this? I've ...

kernel-modules

3:36 PM

@strugee who tell you that i'm not doing any research effort ? please give me the result of what you find in google, can you find an explanation of how to update firefox on debian ??? there is just things like how to install, sorry but for me it's not clear because i have already firefox installed ! if google show you something magic i will be happy to see it. second thing this is really stupid the futur of downvote or upvote, i'm here to find help and also help others ;) — medBo 6 hours ago

so done with this guy

@strugee that's way too easy to answer question

@Braiam yeah. it's a ridiculous question

There, cost him another 2 rep. He'll slowly burn off the 100-rep association bonus...

BTW: if there are any python folks around, this one looks easy: unix.stackexchange.com/questions/125886/…

@derobert :P

@strugee another -2

3:54 PM

aw, thanks guys

mozilla.debian.net actually says specifically which file to edit, too...

@derobert done

through the problem is easy to fix, the makehuman page doesn't include installation instructions

@Braiam Yeah. The hardest part appears to be getting the error out of the OP.

2

I wonder why burninate delete and help center for learning resources got community bulletin, but C API did not?

None of them have the featured tag

Q: How is the contents of the Community Bulletin determined?

16

On Drupal Answers, the number of meta posts shown in the "Community Bulletin" block is now 2. Previously, there was just a single meta post linked from that block, and it was a featured post; the total number of links was the same, as there were a link to an blog post more. What are the criter...

support community-bulletin featured-tag

@Braiam Thanks. So I guess that means the others just got lucky, semi-randomly.

4:03 PM

does anyone know if there's a Stack Exchange where I can ask about the possible existence of a JS library?

I think it will be closed on SO but maybe not on Programmers

@strugee Software Recommendations, or the JS chat room

@strugee There is software recommendations beta

/me wonders if our mods are on vacation, as meta.unix.stackexchange.com/questions/2861/… hasn't happened...

@Braiam that's a good idea, thanks

FYI: Submitted a tag wiki for delete, but its in the edit queue since I'm not at 20k yet. Its a wiki that says not to use it. If you can vote on tags, please review.

@Ramesh re unix.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/43970 ... he did edit the question as well. He's editing the answer he got to update it for the edit he already did for the question.

@Ramesh (no harm done, as the edit was approved anyway)

Ramesh

@derobert, thanks. I checked the question and it was not edited at that time. So, I did not approve earlier. :)

4:17 PM

@Ramesh Ah, OK, that makes sense.

@derobert nah, don't submit it if we are in the process of removing it

@Braiam Won't that help prevent new questions from being tagged?

@derobert people don't read the tag excerpt anyways :P

AU has a tag that says "DO NOT USE" very big, and still 20-40 questions/day get tagged with it

Ramesh

@Braiam, what is the expansion of AU?

@Braiam Well, that is AU... I mean, Ubuntu is Debian for people who couldn't figure out how to use Debian-Installer.

:-/

Ramesh

4:24 PM

Neve mind, got it, it's ask ubuntu. :)

BTW: I'm done removing delete for a while, way too much of the front page is my retagging.

4:49 PM

What is this about the delete tag?

5:17 PM

4

Q: Let's burninate [delete]

delete seems like the most useless thing to me. It fails the adjective test (or whatever it's called): a question tagged with nothing but delete tells you nothing. Can we burninate this tag?

discussion tags

@derobert Presumably that tag is about deleting stuff. What is the objection, that it is too vague?

(not sure how else to link to my proposed tag wiki)

and if you look at the questions tagged delete, its applied to all kinds of things—oops, I deleted my files, how do I delete this file, how do I remove a member from an archive, how do I uninstall a package...

(well, those are some of the ones I remember removing it from. So I guess its not on those anymore.)

5:55 PM

@derobert You had a proposed tag wiki edit which said the tag wasn't useful? :-)

@FaheemMitha Yep. As a warning to people not to use it.

@derobert Interesting

@FaheemMitha it apparently is approved now... go to the new question page, and try to tag your question delete

it should tell you not to do that.

@derobert ok

@derobert Yes, i see it does.

yep

10:11 PM

So tempted to add an answer to the GNOME question saying "unfortunately, not true, the GNOME project will continue as long as their DE has any useful features left to remove."

@derobert Not a GNOME fan?

I was. They removed enough features that I switched to KDE. Despite switching during KDE's Plasma Disaster, it was still better.

@derobert So, what was with the feature removal thing? I heard rumors about it, but I've never used Gnome. I've used KDE since 1999, mostly without really paying any attention to it. It has been a pretty backdrop, like hanging flowered curtains.

Dammit, the jitsi build failed again!

I forget which feature it was when I finally yelled ENOUGH!. They had repeatedly made it more difficult to work with multiple desktops—for example, it wasn't possible to set the taskbar to show only iconified tasks from this desktop only.

Trying to backport jitsi from unstable. My third try.

10:24 PM

It used to be possible, but they removed it.

I think at some point they removed 'iconified only'

@derobert And the motivation for this craziness?

Invasion by alien body snatchers?

@derobert Interesting.

I don't know. The motivations of GNOME developers are impenetrable.

@derobert So KDE is better, then?

10:26 PM

gnome is gone?

Well, it was when I switched, which like I said, was back during 4.0 when they just moved to Plasma. And it crashed routinely, every few days.

I assume this has been publicly discussed? And if so, what did the GNOME developers say?

I gathered they intended to continue removing features until someone else paid for a usability study on the features they were removing.

@derobert Are you serious?

@derobert I've actually never had a problem with KDE stability. Of course, I've only ever used it on Debian stable.

@FaheemMitha It's been a while. I may be exaggerating and/or letting my feelings color my recollection, as I was quite annoyed with them.

10:39 PM

Do you use kde or gnome, Faheem? you use debian, don't you?

@FaheemMitha Yeah. Stable never shipped that version, thankfully.

why would " we'd have to change the url to gilles.stackexchange.com"?

what url?

because Gilles doesn't want to be a moderator?

if he were a moderator

what is the url

unix.stackexchange.com ... odd, it one-boxed. STOP THAT.

10:42 PM

has Gilles created a linux distribution called Gilles?

I am more worried about Gnome.

than Gilles

errrrrr.... I think you've missed the joke.

I'd try to explain it, except of course there is no greater way to make a joke un-funny.

I am more worried about what will happen to Ubuntu than miss the joke

darn, even https onebox

Hmmm, I wonder if they all do now

@Tim If you want to worry about Ubuntu, it's called Mir.

10:45 PM

if gnome is gone (is it true), what will happen to Ubuntu?

Mir? what is it? a Linux distro?

@Tim display server.

No. Mir is Ubuntu's new display server. To replace X11 with.

@Tim I use KDE. I said so above.

Everyone wants to replace X11. But everyone wants to replace it with Wayland. Except Ubuntu. They're suffering a bout of not-ivented-here syndrome.

What is the relation between gnome, X11, display server? Is gnome dependeing on X11?

10:47 PM

Almost everything graphical on Unix depends on X11

Is KDE the only option under Debian?

@Tim there's a Q about that

@Tim No. There are a half dozen options at least in Debian.

@Tim Option for what?

@Braiam seriously? it finally landed?

10:47 PM

option to alterantives to kde

@derobert fuck Mir

A: How is the linux graphics stack organised?

15

The X Window System uses a client-server architecture. The X server runs on the machine that has the display (monitors + input devices), while X clients can run on any other machine, and connect to the X server using the X protocol (not directly, but rather by using a library, like Xlib, or the m...

@Tim you mean desktop environments?

@Tim KDE, GNOME, Mate, Cinnamon, XFCE, a few more

If so, yes, there are lots.

10:48 PM

@strugee yeah, but xkcd with https doesn't :(

don't forget the 5 billion window manager

awesome...

yes. faheem

ratpoison

10:49 PM

Mir or X11, which one is better?

huh

@strugee Hey, but we're wondering what'll finally do Ubuntu in, and Mir is a good option!

Unless they keep delaying it forever. Which seems quite likely.

@Tim it depends on what you're looking at. from a technical perspective almost anything is better than X11/Xorg

why do you ask?

@derobert meh, they didn't change to systemd, and Linus outburst earlier wouldn't help

Because I don't know.

10:50 PM

you can't choose a display server the way you choose a desktop environment

@strugee Is X really that bad?

@Braiam No, I thought Ubuntu threw in the towel on that one, and is switching to systemd?

or shell/browser/editor

@FaheemMitha horrendous

I am not looking at anything

@derobert So shuttleworth said.

10:51 PM

@derobert yes

@derobert they said they will in 14.04, but they haven't

I think he made a public announcement

@Braiam Sounds more likely they will for 14.10 or whatever the next one is.

I will expect it in 15.04

markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316

10:52 PM

@strugee How so?

they need to patch ureadahead and other stuff they use

@FaheemMitha one sec and I'll find you a nice talk on it

Wonder what the next one is, they should call it Unbelievable Unicorn and promise to switch to Mir for it again.

►

Shuttleworth occasionally remembers that Ubuntu is "part of the Debian family".

@strugee Thanks

10:53 PM

@derobert stop saying such funny things about Ubuntu; it's filling the starwall! I feel an obligation!

@derobert Have they got to U already?

@strugee It's OK. I dare not say its name a third time, I might summon it. Like Beetlejuice.

@FaheemMitha yep. tl;dw: doing widgets serverside is an awful idea. everything's done clientside now anyway but they can't break the core protocol and so there's a ton of overhead

@FaheemMitha 14.04 is T.

@derobert Ah, so it is UNICORN TIME!

10:55 PM

and no one's actually fixed it, they've just put bandaids on it

Someone really should suggest that to Shuttleworth, else it will count as a missed opportunity.

to the point where extension negotiation is so ridiculous and bloated that when you start up gedit, it makes 200 calls to the X server. synchronously.

nah, they will cycle the alphabet

@strugee yes, X is really slow. Everybody knows that.

So is the new thing much faster then?

wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames

@FaheemMitha yes. Wayland.

10:57 PM

@derobert I prefer Uxorious Unicorn

basically: the client hands the server a pixel buffer, and the server renders it. end of story

@strugee So Wayland is much faster? And should I call up Debian and demand they switch to it immediately?

Debian is going to switch to it, once its ready.

No one wants to stay on X11. No one.

@derobert And when will that happen?

window manipulation (e.g. wobbly-windows) is done in the server. there's no concept of a window manager, because the window manager is the server. so it reduces a ton of IPC overhead.

@FaheemMitha couple years.

10:59 PM

@strugee ok, thanks

Last I heard, Wayland is usable for development work. The major toolkits (GTK, QT) have Wayland ports.

@strugee ok, so apparently that is a good thing?

@derobert GNOME 3.12 shipped with a preview Wayland session

I don't know a thing about X, except it used to be a pain to get it running. Not so much in recent years, thankfully.

Once you used to have to talk to it nicely and soothingly to get it to come up.

And even then it would come up in some unbelivably bad resolution.

And then you had to tweak it. I don't miss those days.

@FaheemMitha yes. in Wayland there is no single "Wayland implementation" like there is for X11 (Xorg). window managers do compositing client-side anyway; the X11 server basically did nothing.

except bad IPC.

the talk is excellent; I would highly recommend it

11:01 PM

Yeah. X11 is now 30 years old. Its amazing how long it has lasted.

@strugee I've watched the very beginning. Off to try to sleep in a few minutes.

@FaheemMitha ok. when you have time then; no rush :)

re: the title, Xorg suffers, period. — strugee Sep 17 '13 at 0:39

Hey, didn't Daniel Stone manage Debian X for a bit?

@FaheemMitha possibly. I don't know

Oooh, 1900... Time to go home.

Past time, really.

11:05 PM

Question: if X design is so wrong, why was it done that way in the first place?

@FaheemMitha it used to not be wrong

30 years, remember?

@strugee Oh? do tell.

@FaheemMitha It wasn't so wrong. It's 30 years old. Technology changed a lot over the last 30 years.

@derobert ok

To be more specific, what changed?

@FaheemMitha it just started to make more sense to put widget toolkits in the client. that way you can have multiple.

11:08 PM

Looks like my memory was correct. Daniel Stone used to be on the X Strike Force. That's what Debian calls it.

@strugee ok

Graphics cards got dedicated, very fast processors. Huge, constantly-changing pixmaps became very common. Font rendering changed. Display technologies changed. Display densities are no longer always <100ppi. Hardware is hot-pluggable, displays are routinely hot-plugged.

None of these were true when I got into computers in the mid-90s.

@derobert Ok. I don't pay that much attention. There is something called CUDA, I believe.

And LCD monitors are a blessing.

Well, I'm off. Take care, guys.

Yes, CUDA is nVidia's stack to do non-graphics programming on their GPUs

When I got into the computers in the early-to-mid 90s, a 640x480 256-color display was nice.

@derobert Is there a generic/portable option?

@FaheemMitha (took me a second to realize what you were asking) not sure...

11:12 PM

@derobert For GPU programming

@derobert Ok.

I've never done it. I don't know how many generic ones there are. Though the people doing it often want every drop of performance, so they don't want to pay abstraction penalties.

@derobert Yes, I see. I guess that makes sense.

Anyway, I'm going home, and it sounded like you want to go to bed :-)

@FaheemMitha OpenCL

bye all!

bye 2

@slm where is it?

@slm thank Giles

Gilles

11:29 PM

Sorry, my crystal ball was unable to determine what you did to install libnftnl-1.0.1 or the output of ./configure. It didn't even reveal what you're trying to compile. Clearly, I need a better crystal ball. In the meantime, you'll have to edit your question to add all this basic information. — Gilles 56 secs ago

@strugee Thanks

Gilles

@Tim you're welcome

Gilles, you are awesome

at Unix, CS, (and Math). SE

and French.SE

he's gonna kill it in the Operating Systems proposal

I saw him in the sidebar when I was committing and I was like, "of course"

why does he kill the proposal

11:32 PM

it's an expression

it means he's going to be really good

he's gonna kill it if the OS proposal becomes real.

well, yeah

@Tim What are you talking about here?

@slm: if you click the arrow to go back to where it was yeseterday

@slm how's your blog post coming? sorry to bug you, but it's my job :)

@Tim he knows. he still doesn't understand.

11:39 PM

no he doesn't

@Tim - yeah I know that, I read that but still don't understand why you're asking me "where is it?"

@slm sorry. where did you brought me up the other day?

@Tim told you

:P

@strugee - no blog post, sorry been busy all day w/ work

@Tim - it's all there in the backlog of chat

It makes me feel good, that somebody is talking about me

11:42 PM

@Tim - I was suspicious of your pattern of asking Q's the way that you do and was asking what others thought about it

@slm find a needle in a haystack ?

That pattern is suspicious to me (IMO) so I wanted others perrogatives

Search for my name and your name

@slm Well that isn't pleasant.

but you are nice to answer my questions, and ask me to accept yours

@Tim - yes but I'm here all the time and so when I see patterns that are off I like to ask others for their thoughts

I am glad to contribute to your reputation

11:45 PM

@Tim - as am I to answer good Q's

I A Q's that I find interesting or to help my fellow humans out, not for rep

@Tim - I do not know you personally and certainly meant no malice to you or to judge you beyond a pattern that I (IMO) was odd, nothing more.

In real, I don't like to judge others and am too shy to like others to judge me. But here, I stand to be judged.

@Tim - my primary concern is the well being of this site.

yes, I may look like some spammer

and I am no judge, just a fellow user of the site, but I like to take an active role in making sure the users of the site are well intention-ed. I have no power beyond asking others their thoughts on the matter and can only passively protest against would be spammers by directing my answering energies to real Q's

terdon

@Tim There is no judging involved. Sometimes we get malicious users who abuse the site. One of the ways bad users can be identified is by unusual patterns of activity. @slm thought that your question pattern might be strange, so he asked if other people also agreed. That's all.

11:49 PM

so are you running for moderator? @slm

So I hope you understand my position. I'm here to A Q's and to fill in holes that exist on the internet. The last thing I want to do is contribute a second of my A'ing time to fake Q's

terdon

Nah, he just is one, by default.

I am not annoyed. @slm. relax. I am curious about others' reaction on my pattern

@Tim - I have no interest in being a moderator, only in A'ing Q's and filling in voids that exist on the internet, and helping my fellow humans to get past blocking issues

So especially when Gilles didn't think it strange, I find that to be rare and pleasant

11:51 PM

@Tim - I am very relaxed

relaxed wile being packed with work? Good. :)

@Tim - hence why I ask before assuming. I have the luxury of being on this site most of the time, and so see much more of the traffic then most, so when I see something I enlist the help of the others.

I'm generally very relaxed person 8-)

I actually asked a lot before you first came to Unix.SE

If I wasn't I would've surely imploded by being stumped by Q's long ago 8-)

@Tim- I've already gone through your full list of Q's before asking mine.

Having the rep I have I'm very proficient and reading and finding things

Wish I will reach that level by asking more Qs

@slm so I can find out where you brought me up the other day easily

11:54 PM

I encourage you to do so. Your Q's are usually well asked and are appreciated 8-)

Perhaps our paths will cross in the physical world and we can share a beer, I'd be very interested in what you do day to day that generates all the Q's 8-)

I believe we live not very far away from each other as far as Iknow. For more about someone similar to you, you might find it interesting if you haven't seen it meta.stats.stackexchange.com/questions/1665/…

So why are you not running for a mod?

But I admit I am not good.