/dev/chat - 2017-01-19

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12:00 AM

SIGINT is ignorable, yes.

@Kusalananda That's what Michael said. And I've seen him win a technical argument with Stephane, so I'm not about to argue.

Good to know.

About SIGTSTP too.

I don't remember that.

What sends SIGQUIT then?

"Interrupt from keyboard"

@MichaelHomer You were very new. I remember thinking "who's this upstart who dares challenge POSIXman" and then looked a bit closer and you were right :)

12:02 AM

SIGKILL and SIGSTOP are uncatchable. SIGTSTP is what Ctrl-Z sends, which is catchable but with default behaviour of stopping.

Or, rather, you both went off into some obscure discussion about shell arcana that I couldn't follow, so I figured you must know your stuff. And then I started reading your answers which did nothing to disabuse me of that assumption.

Ctrl-\ sends SIGQUIT

Hmm.

@MichaelHomer Neither of those are handled by the program in question though, right?

KILL and STOP are instructions to the operating system, TSTP is a request to the program

Ah. And that should have been "Quit from keyboard", not "interrupt". Cross-eyed. It's late.

12:04 AM

@MichaelHomer Right

Hmm... Ctrl+\ does nothing to sleep 60. Does in have to be caught?

And yes, it is late. I'm off to bed. Night all.

Take care.

Ctrl-\ seems less-and-less implemented lately

I'm not sure it even sends with some terminals

Well, I am sure that it doesn't

@Kusalananda works for me. Have you disabled C-\ in the stty config?

does your terminal actually transmit the C-\ character?

12:07 AM

Haven't played with stty on my current setup.

Can't seem to even trap QUIT in the shell.

trap -- 'echo QUIT' QUIT

I just get ^\ on the console.

It's 1.10am. I should go to bed.

Howdy anyone around??
I will ask my question: Do you any unix applications actually use the PgDn and PgUp key?

Literature SE just entered private beta.

12:23 AM

@William less

And other pagers, probably.

@MichaelHomer other then less

@William most

more doesn't

vi might can't tell yet

non of the 20 most used commands do

@William Why do you ask? Just wondering.

12:37 AM

@FaheemMitha askubuntu.com/questions/169054/…

What are the 20 most used commands?

@MichaelHomer www-users.york.ac.uk/~hcb1/unix20.html

@FaheemMitha trying to figure out why they didn't add a shorcut that is all

if most commands use PgDn I could see them not supporting it

@William Only two of those are interactive, so that's hardly surprising

@MichaelHomer that fair, I have to start somewhere though

Questionable methodology that has rmdir ahead of rm, too

Many terminals have user-defined keybindings

8 hours later…

8:45 AM

@William Those don't use any keys at all, so no pageUp/Down either. Many other programs do. GNU screen/byobu for example, and many terminals use them to scroll up.

2 hours later…

10:56 AM

"it looks like we are in need of a bash one liner..." https://t.co/TYUNFFm6si

Tweeted by jessfraz on January 17, 2017 at 7:07 PM

11:15 AM

Don't get me started on "one-liners".... "Oh, this is a handy one-liner! I'll put it in a script so that I don't lose it." (Creates script with one single line of cryptic bash code)

1 hour later…

12:36 PM

I've seen worse. I remember a cow-orker who was supposed to convert a horribly tangled mess of a bash script into a perl script.

His solution was to put `#!/usr/bin/perl` at the start, and then put `system()` around every line in the bash script

And that was not the most horrible thing I saw at that job.

Gah!

@JennyD That's an oddly place hyphen. :-) Now, if you had a coworker that was actually a cow, it might make sense.

@FaheemMitha Old usenet habit...

@Kusalananda Indeed! The tweet seemed appropriate to Unix.SE because questions often feature a "one-liner" request...

and obviously a cow-orker is someone who orks cows.

12:41 PM

@JennyD Curious. What's the logic?

@JennyD Obviously.

@FaheemMitha catb.org/esr/jargon/html/C/cow-orker.html

@StephenKitt huh.

It's just an old in-joke from alt.sysadmin.recovery, I can't even remember who started it or when.
The world is made up of PHBs (bosses), bofhen (us), lusers (the non-computer-literate). But then there are people who get bofh jobs but who really belong in the luser category. They are cow-orkers.

There are also PFYs, they are bofhs-in-training.

@JennyD I see. Thank you for explaining.

@JennyD and don't forget larting!

12:45 PM

@StephenKitt I have an axe.

@JennyD the tool of choice

and I still prefer to type ls -lart with the options in that order.

@FaheemMitha check out manpages-asr when you have some time

or asr-manpages rather

@StephenKitt What command do I type?

@JennyD History takes strange forms.

apt-get install asr-manpages if you have an old-enough version of Debian

12:47 PM

I'm running stable.

get it from tracker.debian.org/pkg/asr-manpages otherwise

> E: Unable to locate package asr-manpages

@StephenKitt ok

@FaheemMitha Yes... and old habits die hard.

@FaheemMitha yeah it was removed from Jessie and later releases because the licenses were unclear

@StephenKitt Bummer.

Apart from the obvious (i.e. Chromium and Firefox) what are the other usable browsers available on Debian (if any)?

1:01 PM

@FaheemMitha KDE still pulls in Konqueror by default (unlike GNOME which no longer depends on Epiphany), but I don't know how usable Konqueror is nowadays. Apart from that nothing springs to mind...

@StephenKitt Not very. I just tried typing a url and nothing happened.

I used to use a Gnome based browser for a while, but it deteriorated.

I've now forgetten its name.

Ah, yes. Galeon.

No longer in Debian, apparently.

And how is Epiphany? Now called Web? Weird.

1 hour later…

2:38 PM

0

Q: Can't boot using 4.8 kernel on LMDE 2

I'm using LMDE 2 (stable 3.16 kernel). I installed the 4.8 kernel from backports and it gave me warnings on postinst about possibly missing firmware for my radeon module. Then, I upgraded my system ENTIRELY from the backports thinking maybe that would fix the issue. But my PC would still not boot...

debian kernel upgrade lmde

oh dear

2:53 PM

@FaheemMitha I'm fairly sure links works there. And of course w3 in Emacs.

@JennyD I had in mind a full featured browser. I just tried Epiphany, but it's loading very slowly for some reason.

It seems that few people use anything but Firefox and Chrome/Chromium on free systems these days.

@FaheemMitha Kids these days... Text should be good enough for anyone ;-)

@JennyD Heh. You forgot to say "get off my lawn!"

@FaheemMitha Just stand still there until I can hobble up and hit you with my cane!

@JennyD ok.

2:58 PM

@JennyD commitstrip.com/en/2016/12/22/terminal-forever

Damn

user image

4

@JennyD So, what do you think of the new season of Supergirl?

@terdon GUI:s are just a way of having room for more terminal windows. And a mouse is a device for selecting which xterm to type in.

@FaheemMitha I like it! I really like the storyline with her sister, made me all weepy

@JennyD Which storyline?

@FaheemMitha Her coming out

Don't worry about spoilers. I doubt anyone here cares.

@JennyD Oh, right. That. Yes, apparently it was (relatively) accurately depicted.

3:00 PM

@FaheemMitha Don't make assumptions. I haven't seen it yet and I might well do so.

Leaving now, carry on :P

A bit ironical in a show about a girl who can fly, lift a plane, and shoot lasers out of her eyes.

@terdon I stand corrected.

@terdon You should, it's a really good series

OK. I probably will. Can't be worse than Arrow, and I'm watching that.

@terdon How?

How?

3:02 PM

Ms. Benoist is certainly super-cute.

Uhm. The normal way, with my eyes?

@terdon Yes. You aren't in the US, so you aren't watching it on tv.

@terdon And there I thought you might be watching the Braille version.

I'm actually watching it on Netflix. But I've been known to download stuff off of the internet every now and then, as well.

@FaheemMitha I'm not in the US either, and I prefer not to say exactly how I get my shows...

@terdon Oh, Netflix has it? Ok.

3:04 PM

@terdon is the joke you can't really use a terminal on a touch screen

@JennyD Yeah, that was kind of a weird question. looks around furtively; are they watching?

One problem (for me) with a lot of these US shows (and movies) is that mostly I can't quite believe in these people as heroes. But that's a minor issue.

@William I think it's just that he's still using CLI. Even if he's controlling it with his brain or whatever.

@terdon Sorry, I wasn't meaning to call down the black helicoptors.

lol

3:06 PM

:)

this is unix related but does anyone know which of the cygwin issues the w10 linux built in will fix

If I'm still around in 2034 I expect to be talking to my computer. Of course, it probably won't understand most of what I say.

wiki.osdev.org/Cygwin_Issues

I'm wondering if Amazon Prime Video is really worth the trouble. Does anyone use it?

@FaheemMitha I do that already. I won't start worrying until the thing starts answering me.

3:14 PM

@FaheemMitha my parents have it probably not

@William Amazon Prime? It doesn't seem to have much stuff.

my dad watches sports on his tablet which I beileve is what amazon prime video does

@William Ah, ok. Well, I already have it, because I have prime. By worth it, I meant setting things up so it can be watched on a tv.

@FaheemMitha can't you plug up a laptop and stream off that

seems easy enough

@William It's not that hard. But I'll have to run cable. I don't think my wifi is up to it.

3:18 PM

@FaheemMitha for 1080p/4k it doesn't work great but 720p is fine

@William Noted, thanks.

so does anyone know which of the cygwin issues I listed above are fixed?

this isn't a windows form

@William This might not be the best place to ask. What is the "w10 linux built in"?

superuser then?

@William You could try superuser chat, sure. But maybe tell us what this is about first?

I'm at least not exactly up on the latest tech.

3:23 PM

@FaheemMitha theverge.com/2016/3/30/11331014/…

supposedly it is genuine ubuntu so you would think it would work well I guess

my concern are file descriptors

@William Yes, I heard about that.

It's a strange world. Then again, you-know-who is about to become President of you-know-where. Maybe the Rapture is nigh.

What was the issue, again?

Here probably isn't the best place to ask a question about Linux emulation on Windows.

@FaheemMitha how is this better then cygwin? This are known issues with Cygwin wiki.osdev.org/Cygwin_Issues I would hope the new system wouldn't introduce new issues

yes that is true

@William Your question is how it is better than Cygwin? I suppose because it's a native Windows thing.

hahaha I want actual issue comparison but thank for the help

And supported by MS. So hopefully it will work better than Cygwin, which is third-party.

@William I don't use Windows.

Actually, I run screaming from Windows. I'd hope into the SuperUser chat and ask.

3:28 PM

@FaheemMitha OSX or linux guy then?

It's quite friendly, and the chances are that somebody there knows something.

@William Pardon?

@FaheemMitha what OS are you running then

Also, the SU people are more OS agnostic than here.

@William I use Debian.

^ ubuntu

thanks for the help bye

Do you know how to get to the SU chat?

3:30 PM

hahah yes

i may not have the same rep as you but I use the SU user chat regularly

ok

I wonder if MS have decided that Linux is not a cancer?

1 hour later…

4:53 PM

@FaheemMitha Konqueror works here (just tried it). At least google.com loads.

@derobert I was trying the airbnb site.

If it's loading, it's extremely slow. More likely it's getting bogged down in something.

airbnb.co.in. It might redirect to airbnb.com.

@FaheemMitha airbnb.com loaded fine here.

@derobert Ah, ok. I'll try again.

Do you use any browsers other than Firefox/Iceweasel & Chrome/Chromium?

@FaheemMitha Every once in a while links, lynx, or w3m

But that's normally because I'm ssh'd in somewhere and can't use Firefox

@derobert Ah. The text browsers. I meant a regular "full" browser.

Though w3m isn't actually a text browser. It does load images.

4:58 PM

I wonder if Seamonkey is still around?

Looks like it.

That sounds vaguely familar.

@FaheemMitha quickly playing with it some, it appears Konqueror is still fully usable. I'm on testing though, and probably have kde-full installed

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_layout_engines gives a few more to try...

and of course en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_web_browsers#Graphical

@derobert I definitely don't have kde-full installed. apt wanted 315 newly installed.

I don't see seamonkey on stable.

I'm not sure it's packaged. Not in testing/unstable either. But they have a website with a recent release.

Do I need kde-full to use Konqueror?

5:03 PM

Hi people. I see you're discussing browsers. Sorry to barge in with a POSIX quiz. /dev/stdin is not required on a POSIX system, right? I know of no system without it though, except for MinGW on Windows. Any others?

> After this operation, 698 MB of additional disk space will be used.

@Kusalananda That sounds like it would make a reasonable question.

conkeror is in testing (another browser on the Wikipedia list)

@FaheemMitha Nah. I have the POSIX docs in front of me, and it lists it, but names it a "non-standard extension" that may be implemented on conforming systems.

@Kusalananda Well, you're asking here. So why not ask on the site?

Oh well...

5:07 PM

@FaheemMitha Yeah, kde-full is big

@Kusalananda nobody will think less of you for it.

@derobert Not that big, really. I guess I could install it. Though I don't have a compelling reason to do so.

@FaheemMitha Just checking for existing answers first...

ok

Anthony isn't a POSIX specialist. That would be @Gilles and @StéphaneChazelas, probably. And I don't know anything about Unix. But don't tell anyone.

Yeah. Most of us don't actually know anything about Unix, we just run it because we like the pretty-shiny blinking cursor.

Your secret is safe with me :-)

@derobert Your cursor is blinking?! Wow! I want one!

5:13 PM

@Kusalananda Good. It'd be bad if that secret got out! They'd shut us down.

@Kusalananda great, now I have to remember how to make an animated GIF

The problems we have.

@derobert Yes, and we like typing stuff into a shell. It's got that retro-cool feel.

user image

@Kusalananda There, now you have one!

Not sure I quite got the speed of that right. But its good enough, because I'm pretty sure that's an X resource you can set.

Yay! Happy! I will treasure it always.

In the category of "things you probably don't have to worry about", here is Joey Hess on batteries

I think I'd go mad if I had to run my computer off batteries. But JH is clearly better than us mere mortals.

5:33 PM

@FaheemMitha Especially on the budget he lives on! I mean, you could just throw more money at the problem, and add more batteries and solar panels.

And add a LPG generator, and a tank. You can probably get gas delivery.

@derobert Yes, he could do that. But apparently doesn't. He says he enjoys the challenge or something.

I think that's bordering on masochism.

I mean, he lives without A/C — that's already bordering on masochism.

@derobert True, in Tennessee. It must get hot there.

@FaheemMitha joeyh.name/blog/entry/drought

If everyone lived like Joey, we wouldn't have a global warming problem.

I don't see how he manages on 10 gallons a day, though. That's next to no water at all.

5:54 PM

@FaheemMitha Really. I use more than that in a day just for humidifying... At least in the winter.

@derobert Yes, and the average human drinks a significant amount during the day too.

Well, a fair bit less than 10 gallons, though. But a shower, or washing dishes, or...

@FaheemMitha also, that 400 gallons/day figure is for a family of four.

@derobert Humans don't drink 10 gallons a day, no. But we use water for lots of other things.

I wonder if he has a compost toilet.

Maybe an outhouse?

Perhaps.

Regular toilets take a lot of water, and are generally a disaster from an ecological pov.

I hear good things about composting, but I don't know if it is practical in an urban environment.

@derobert Did you ever happen to watch the tv show "The Good Life"?

6:06 PM

The low-water design has been standard here for a while... And I think the ecological impact varies greatly depending on where you are. Some places have a lot of water, it doesn't matter much there. Other places don't, and it matters quite a bit.

@FaheemMitha no

@derobert It's reasonably fun.

@derobert Well, it's also that you then have contaminated water, which you have to clean. Or in places like India, not.

@FaheemMitha well, here we do clean it... so it's not a huge ecological impact...

@derobert Sure, but that's more energy usage. Composting is very energy efficient, I imagine.

@FaheemMitha Quick check shows that water (total, not just wastewater treatment) is something like 3–4% of US electric use, so not that big

@derobert <Shrug.> It all adds up. And the US uses a ton of power, so it's probably still huge.

1 hour later…

7:22 PM

A bit late to the party, but I just checked, and the two of us are using about 5500 litres of water/month (all uses, both hot and cold), or just over 180 litres a day, which is about 48 US gallons/day... which also happens to be about the same as the rate of filtration of one human kidney (according to WolframAlpha).

@Kusalananda That's relatively modest usage. And how are you able to calculate your usage so exactly?

@FaheemMitha It's metered and added to our rent.

@Kusalananda Oh. I see.

@FaheemMitha And also, we're not showering every day (that's the biggest use), and we don't use much for cooking. We run the washing machine once a week at most.

@Kusalananda Yes. I think we probably use more. We have a balcony garden, for one thing. Though not a large one.

7:30 PM

@FaheemMitha I lived in a small retreat up in the Spanish mountain for four months in 2011. Washing by standing outside in a bucket was fun, when it was warm. Doing that would save huge amounts. But we grow so used to comfort...

Anyway, it's hard to imagine how JH get away with 10 gallons a day.

@Kusalananda And time saving.

"saving", yes.

For what?

Living alone I could keep my current standard with 25-30 US gallons/day. With a bit of effort, I don't think it would be hard to get that to 15 or so. Someone living off the grid would have the added awareness of the resources they consumed, so 10 gallons/day doesn't seem far fetched. A bit extreme when viewed with eyes of comfort, yes.

@Kusalananda Dunno. Doing whatever.

Not that most people do much with their free time. Answer more questions on SE, perhaps.

I suspect most of India manages with very little water. And potable water isn't that common here, or so I hear.

7:50 PM

> Actually, the very antique charge controller in the house was dead and bypassed, so I removed it. I called its manufacturer wondering if it could be refurbished, but they suggested it belonged in a museum.

: -)

As I think I've mentioned earlier, JH would do quite well in a zombie apocalypse. Well, except for the zombies themselves, I suppose.

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