/dev/chat - 2014-12-19

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12:38 AM

@mikeserv wth, are you installing XP?

@mikeserv and now you know what that double entendre is...

12:55 AM

@derobert - It was Windows 7 - it was the only bootable disc I could find in my dusty stack of opticals.

1:14 AM

@maple_shaft AMEN.

I haven't followed this link yet, but considering the target audience, I'm pretty sure I know what I'll find there...

7

Q: Paint.NET alternative for Mac OS X

I would be extremely grateful to anyone pointing me in the direction of the Mac OS X analogue for the free Windows image-editing software Paint.NET. Basically the way I use it is I take lots of screenshots for work, then put arrows in there, some ovals and text - it's all for documentation purpo...

osx software-recommendation

1:42 AM

@derobert - yeah.

update your nvidia driver. if it's annoying, fall back to the working kernel or script the update (there will be some auto-run script that builds your new initramfs at least - probably you can hook it). Else, ummm, welcome to the party? — mikeserv 10 hours ago

Also, I'll happilly curse along. Do you also lose input devs sporadically because your session goes inactive? Who the fuck would even write that routine?

@mikeserv Nah, I'm on Debian, where the module automatically gets built for the new kernel. Well, it does when its compatible. Turned out the one I had didn't like 3.18.1, slightly newer version did.

@mikeserv Nope... never even heard of that one. Indeed sounds insane.

2:22 AM

@derobert - oh the link thing was more of a me (and Matt, apparently) too than a you too?.

The session thing...

So, probably I should have some handler for this or whatever, but since Xorg went usermode I guess it just looks like a regular session-leader or something - I don't really know how all of that works - but Chrome doesn't (mostly because I force compositing probably and --ignore-gpu-blacklist),

Or maybe it isn't even a session-leader - the shell from which I launch startx probably is, I guess,

And so systemd will time-out the session eventually - it's a signal of some kind sent to god knows what layer of the stack - and I have to restart enlightenment (whatever happened to CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE?) but chrome has its own aura thing going on and...

Basically, I hate guis.

or... maybe it's pulse-audio's fault.

3:20 AM

Anyone recognize this login screen?

user image

It reminds me of the one in CentOS, but I cannot remember what it is called.

If you do know easy answer over here on AU: askubuntu.com/questions/563135/…

2 hours later…

5:11 AM

@mikeserv Not your laptop?

@FaheemMitha - not my laptop. though maybe it is now

The neighbor gave me a bunch of old machines the other day.

In exchange for getting at least one up and going for him.

He says they all came out of abandoned cars at an impound lot.

@mikeserv I see.

Good machines?

5:35 AM

@FaheemMitha - No - and not a one has a charger.

I've only brought two up so far - and the one only barely.

The other - as I said - is for the neighbor. At least one of the others looks pretty promising - but, well, I haven't yet managed to wedge any plug into its power port.

1 hour later…

6:41 AM

Hi

6:54 AM

hi

@ItachiUchiha - hi again?

7:15 AM

heya

I got a solution, so thanks :)

7:59 AM

@mikeserv Oh. Probably not a useful way to spend the time, then.

2 hours later…

10:18 AM

This looks like a candidate for closing to me:

unix.stackexchange.com/q/174932

10:46 AM

@FaheemMitha - amazing there aren't more answers there.

@mikeserv More answers where?

@FaheemMitha there

@mikeserv There where?

@StéphaneChazelas - two answers other Stéphane might want to revisit...

@FaheemMitha - on the question you just linked to.

The chat link I just replied to.

11:10 AM

How can I put bare backtick ` in the inline code environment?

11:23 AM

@mikeserv Oh, right, sorry. But there are no answers at all.

@jimmij Pardon?

Oh, right. If it doesn't do what you expect, try preceding with a backslash.

@jimmij - there's some meta answer on that somewhere but I always forget anyway. Or... wait...

I think it works like..
`backtick?

Nah. Doesn't work. But I guess backslash` does.

@FaheemMitha - are you messing with me here?

@mikeserv No, I would never do that.

Are we talking about the same question? Titled "Distro similar to Porteus but Debian based"

Never? Why not?

And yes!!!

This has no answers. Unless I am going blind.

I know!

11:32 AM

@mikeserv I guess it's my turn to ask if you are messing with me.

Messing with people is not nice, and not constructive. Best left to sexually frustrated 12 year olds. To answer your "Why not?".

What is with the ghost icon, anyway.

@derobert drew it for me.

It's not every day somebody draws me a picture.

@mikeserv I tried already with backslash` but without luck.

@mikeserv He's very obliging that way. He helped to save my sanity last night. Well, tried, anyway. Maybe it is too late.

@jimmij What problems do you get when you use ` inline?

@FaheemMitha - save it for what - a rainy day? I say... spend it all!

@mikeserv Well, you certainly have an interesting perspective on things.

11:40 AM

@jimmij - really? it works here, ` right?

@mikeserv I don't think he means in chat.

I did it in a comment too, I think...

I wanted to put ` in the code environment in my answer which mikeserv just edited: unix.stackexchange.com/questions/174815/…

@jimmij Why? And again, what goes wrong?

@FaheemMitha the problem is that ` opens and closes code environment, so one cannot literally put ` inside.

11:44 AM

@jimmij What happens if you try? You get a mess?

I'm surprised a backslash doesn't work.

@jimmij - here's the meta answer I was thinking about:

75

A: How can the backtick character ` be included in code?

If you do not want to use a pre-formatted block, there is still a way to do it inline. From the “Code” section of the Markdown Documentation: To include a literal backtick character within a code span, you can use multiple backticks as the opening and closing delimiters: ``There is a litera...

Comments are addressed there.

Good answer by Chris.

Oh, thanks it works! So in fact one has to use 5 backticks: 2 consecutive, a space, single one, a space and 2 consecutive again.

5

@FaheemMitha in point of fact though, @derobert drew it for mikeserf - may he rest in peace.

in his final hours - minutes - even.

@mikeserv What happened to mikeserf? And how do you know he drew it? Did he say so?

12:07 PM

Well, mikeserf ghosted. And maybe I just prefer to believe he drew it for him... Damn, you sure do get deep sometimes - cut right to quick, you know? It's no wonder you own this place.

is there any difference between installing a 64 or 32 bit OS on a netbook which is quite weak and has only 2GB of ram?

3

Well, the 32-bit installation will likely be smaller in overall size (by a very small margin) - and 32-bit processes will likely consume (by the same small margin) less memory for each.

12:29 PM

so if I just install the 64bit, there shouldn't be a big difference right?

No, probably not. Though, depending on how up-to-date your installation keeps its packages, a 64-bit version might stay slightly more up-to-date.

phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTUwMzI

12:54 PM

@mikeserv, great link and info, thanks

1:19 PM

@Vass You generally want a 64 bit install, other things being equal. imo.

That's a pure slug of opinion, though. Sorry about that.

opinions are valuable :D

Apparently I "earned" two Fascinating and two Saint Lucia hats. I have no idea what this is about, though. I've actually never met a hat I would term as fascinating, though the hat at the end of "Go Dog Go" comes close.

As in "Do you like my hat?"

This one, I think

memaw-memawsworld.blogspot.in/2011/03/go-dog-go.html

Funny, I haven't thought about that book in 20 years. Or more.

Somehow I even remembered the name of the book was "Go Dog Go". Go figure.

Hello. Can someone help me with port forwarding on Linux VM?

What book is that?

1:39 PM

@mikeserv Were you talking to me?

2 hours later…

3:26 PM

@FaheemMitha click the snowflake on the top bar (on a non-chat SE site) and click the winter bash link. It'll tell you what all the hats are earned for except for any secret hats. There is a post on meta.SE with info on all of the secret hats.

@casey i don't get what the point of all this is. Is this just general wackiness for the sake of wackiness?

4:02 PM

@FaheemMitha check the blog about it

@FaheemMitha its an ancient holiday tradition. If you don't see the point, you can always banish them with the "I hate hats" button.

@casey I don't hate hats. No doubt they have their place. Though I don't think I've ever worn one. Afair.

@Braiam Link?

4:36 PM

Blog - Stack Exchange: Winter Bash 2014

Jon Ericson on December 14, 2014

There is no better antidote, at least for the worst hours and eclipses of the soul, than to conjure up … serious frivolity.—Friedrich Nietzsche

No, it’s not a new flavor of Unix shell. Rather, Winter Bash is an ancient tradition of Stack Exchange. (2011 is ancient according to Internet time.) Here’s how it works:

Starting right now, when you complete one of 30-odd challenges while logged on a participating site, you will be awarded the associated hat. To notify you, an icon will light up on the top bar. In addition, admire your hat collection on the Winter Bash 2014 site …

@Braiam Thanks

1 hour later…

5:48 PM

I kinda liked the Unicoins. They should bring those back.

6:02 PM

@FaheemMitha Maybe they will next April 1

@FaheemMitha I think they dropped the whole currency idea when they realized fairy tale inflation totally sucks.

...or blows?

@mikeserv If it is a fairy tale, you don't have to have inflation.

I dunno... There are some rules - like everybody lives happily ever after and 30% APR.

@derobert I had problems with the ffmpeg recipe. I haven't looked at it carefully to try to figure out the problem

@mikeserv I'm glad I don't live in your fairyland.

@FaheemMitha But my fairytale lenders offer 24/7 phone support!

6:15 PM

@mikeserv pass. moneylenders suck. ask Jesus.

Render unto Caesar

"Render unto Caesar" is the beginning of a phrase attributed to Jesus in the synoptic gospels, which reads in full, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" (Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ).[Matthew 22:21] This phrase has become a widely quoted summary of the relationship between Christianity and secular authority. The original message, coming in response to a question of whether it was lawful for Jews to pay taxes to Caesar, gives rise to multiple possible interpretations about the circumstances under which it is desirable...

@FaheemMitha Did you try it with the static ffmpeg?

@HaukeLaging, @1_CR, @jimmij, @Gilles, @Anthon: [and apologies in advance, as I'm sure some of you correctly picked close instead of migrate, but the log doesn't say] re: unix.stackexchange.com/posts/175047/revisions ... please only migrate good questions. That's explicitly off-topic for SO, see stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic point #4.

6:35 PM

@derobert No, sid backport. Which appears to work.

@mikeserv Wasn't there a throwing moneylenders out of the Temple incident.

@derobert like I said, still need to check it. Maybe a bit later. Feeling lazy right now.

The sid backport was a real pain. Multiple issues.

@derobert Ugh, that got migrated? I voted to close as too broad. I hadn't even noticed that previous votes were for migration.

That's a terrible question. Why would anyone vote to migrate?

6:52 PM

Boo!

Sorry, didn't mean to scare anyone.

I'm looking for that meta post I think @Braiam started, with canonical Q&As in it...

@goldilocks mm?

denies all knowledge

Huh. Well then.

@Braiam Ah ha:

18

Q: Let's compile a list of canonical Q&As

A few of us were talking about this the other day in chat, as we are now quite a bit larger and with several thousand Q&As, there are certain questions that are asked very often. Things like redirecting output, process substitution, batch renaming of files, fixing/reinstalling grub, etc. Let's c...

discussion canonical-questions

I knew it was you.

Okay I starred it now.

@FaheemMitha - yeah, he laid into em with whips. But that was because jh harbors a passionate hatred for loitering - the money was beside the point. He was basically telling them to get the f off his lawn.

@mikeserv lol

@goldilocks terdon, not Braiam.

@FaheemMitha Don't nit pick.

7:06 PM

@goldilocks Huh?

@goldilocks ¬_¬

@FaheemMitha - and besides, there are at least 3 Caesars on any given shift round-the-clock in the fairytale payday-loan call-center.

...act now...

@mikeserv I'm liking your fairyland less and less. You make Captain Hook look good.

I don't make him look good, that peacock preens at least an hour a day before going out.

@mikeserv I believe you.

7:12 PM

I guess its how he landed the hardware-chain advert deal.

@mikeserv ?

Meh. I'm through.

Okay, while I've got everyone's attention: is it or is it not possible to put a hyperlink in a tag description?

@goldilocks excerpt: no; tag wiki, yes

I mean, excerpt is stripped text as-is, no markdown nor html

Ah, okay, I see the difference.

@Braiam Well that's stupid. When do you ever actually see the wiki except when editing it, lol? Clicking the tag just shows the excert and way out east a wee "about" link. I know it's not your fault, just saying.

7:23 PM

@Gilles Yeah, when I saw your name on there I realized that some of those votes were probably for things other than migrate... But I think that means at least three other people did vote to migrate. Hopefully that chat ping reached them, too.

@FaheemMitha What went wrong when you tried that magic command line?

@derobert Nothing. The problem was with the next command, the dvdauthor thingy

@FaheemMitha Oh, I only read the ffmpeg part of that post. Did ffmpeg spit out something that was reasonable (e.g., correct resolution, correct aspect)?

@derobert Do you know a handy command to get an mpg file to report its res and aspect?

@FaheemMitha well, I'd just play it with mpv (or mplayer, whatever)

You could use ffprobe to get the information without playing it, but the players all spit it out as part of their console output. You also get to confirm the encode isn't botched in some manner that way.

VIDEO: MPEG2 720x480 (aspect 1) 29.970 fps 9000.0 kbps (1125.0 kbyte/s)

dvdauthor then says - WARN: unknown mpeg2 aspect ratio 1

7:29 PM

wow, the video is square ???

The former output is from mplayer

@derobert It looks fine visually. I assume some problem with the magical ffmpeg cmd line.

Later on it says:

Unsupported PixelFormat 61
Unsupported PixelFormat 53
Unsupported PixelFormat 81
Movie-Aspect is 1.50:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect.

As usual, I have no idea what this means. I assume mplayer is making some adjustment.

OK... so "aspect 1" is the PAR not DAR. DAR is 3:2. And indeed that's not on a random list of allowed DVD aspect rations I found.

So yeah, that ffmpeg line failed.

@FaheemMitha what was the resolution & aspect ratio of the source file?

@derobert VIDEO: [H264] 1280x536 24bpp 23.976 fps 851.9 kbps (104.0 kbyte/s)

Later it says:

Movie-Aspect is 2.39:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect.

I guess whatever heuristics that cmd line was using, it failed. Any idea why?

Hmmm... try that ffmpeg line at the bottom of the final post on that thread.

ffmpeg.gusari.org/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1235 if you've lost the link

@derobert There's a thread? Ok, will do.

No, I still have the link, thanks.

7:40 PM

@FaheemMitha to be clear, that's just a replacement for the -filter:v (or -vf) bit, not the entire line

The ks_kalvan one, I guess

yeah

@derobert Right, he doesn't have a complete command line. Ok, will give it a try. You think it might fix the problem? Yes, I see Kalvan (if that is his name) says something about aspect ratio.

Hey, the good news is that we can post this on SE with a clear conscience, because the OP screwed up. Yay!

I guess this is what they call a silver lining.

But let me check the thing actually works. Stay tuned.

@FaheemMitha I'm not entirely sure that'll work, because his aspect ratio might not be exactly what dvdauthor wants. If not, though, I can figure the numbers to put in there...

@derobert Ok, thanks. It will take a while to run, anyway.

7:44 PM

@FaheemMitha Run the first 30s of the video, no reason to test with the whole thing!

ffmpeg -t 30 -i ...

@derobert Oh. ok. good point

VIDEO: MPEG2 720x480 (aspect 3) 29.970 fps 9000.0 kbps (1125.0 kbyte/s)

Unsupported PixelFormat 61
Unsupported PixelFormat 53
Unsupported PixelFormat 81
Movie-Aspect is 1.78:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect.

well, dvdauthor seems to run on this. what do you think?

@FaheemMitha Well, use mplayer to confirm it looks right too. Then go ahead and make the ISO, and use e.g., xine to confirm that works

@derobert mplayer plays isos too

@FaheemMitha - dunno if you've got it insatlled, but vlc actually has an interactive cli written in... what's that brazillian thing?

@mikeserv yes, I have vlc installed. don't use it much though.

7:50 PM

It can do most of that stuff, too. But the cli gives you a prompt and stuff - with interactive help and tab completion.

@FaheemMitha Sure, you could use that. Though I suspect mplayer would happily play a DVD encoded with an aspect the standard prohibits. Though maybe xine would too.

@derobert Yes, probably. But if dvdauthor runs without complaint, you're golden. in my experience, anyway

Anyway, you want to compare the video after being put in the iso to the original video. Make sure it hasn't been squished/stretched.

Or pixelated. Or blockified. Etc.

definitely use mplayer if you're sure about what you're doing - it's faster and more to the point. I just suggested vlc for poking around til you figure it out. it can write out to your framebuffer for samples and such.

Though, vlc generally does use ffmpeg too, when it can.

@derobert The mpg looks ok. which is usually a reliable indication of how the dvd will look

@mikeserv use it for what?

7:54 PM

@FaheemMitha Usually. And I guess DVD blanks are cheap enough...

@derobert Well, I use rewritables, anyway

Though I think non-rewritables might actually be better from a playing robustness pov

Aren't you trying to test different encodes and aspect ratios and the like? I just thought you might have it easier with a prompt.

i read somewhere that the holes are a bit deeper, and of course scratches are a problem over the long term

@FaheemMitha yes, they are. At least in standard DVD readers, the RW ones aren't as reflective, I believe.

@mikeserv Dunno. I have no idea what I'm doing.

@derobert reflective? not sure what that means.

7:56 PM

@FaheemMitha How well it reflects the laser reading the disc.

@derobert oh, so more reflective is better? Ok.

@FaheemMitha once you do the full encode, you can check file size to make sure it fits on the disc you have. Or up the bit rate if its small.

What was it you said to me before?

Ahh yes.

12 hours ago, by Faheem Mitha

@mikeserv Oh. Probably not a useful way to spend the time, then.

@mikeserv In relevance to what?

@FaheemMitha this

7:58 PM

@mikeserv Ah. Well, I don't know what I'm doing, but still want it to work. So, basically I want a Big Red Button to press, while my brain rests. Like a Windows user, basically.

Anthony has helpfully supplied me with aforesaid Big Red Button.

So, all that remains is the pressing.

-target dvd seems to set a bitrate of 6mbps, aka, 43MB/minute

Plus 448kbps for audio

So ~46MB/minute

(I found out what -target dvd sets by... RTFS)

@derobert RTFS?

I think an answer that gives a command line that works, and explains the logic would be really useful.

It's been driving me crazy for years.

@derobert That might be a little high for a long movie. Shall I try the command line as is, anyway?

8:19 PM

@FaheemMitha - what kind of video are you encoding? From what to what? Why?

@mikeserv Shh, it's all TOP SECRET!

@FaheemMitha read the f... source

@derobert Ah, the source. Hang on, you read the C source of ffmpeg?

@FaheemMitha to find what -target dvd meant, yes.

@derobert That should be in the man page

8:25 PM

@FaheemMitha yeah, probably

or at least have an option to print it

The man page has bugger all to say on the subject.

I have no idea why they have -target instead of -preset.... probably historical

I generally don't try to read sources, particularly C sources.

BTW, Verizon is giving me a $50 credit for that outage

I just assume they will be incomprehensible. Possibly unfairly.

2

@derobert That doesn't seem like very much. Are you satisfied?

8:26 PM

    } else if (!strcmp(arg, "dvd")) {

        opt_video_codec(o, "c:v", "mpeg2video");
        opt_audio_codec(o, "c:a", "ac3");
        parse_option(o, "f", "dvd", options);

        parse_option(o, "s", norm == PAL ? "720x576" : "720x480", options);
        parse_option(o, "r", frame_rates[norm], options);
        parse_option(o, "pix_fmt", "yuv420p", options);
        opt_default(NULL, "g", norm == PAL ? "15" : "18");

        opt_default(NULL, "b:v", "6000000");
        opt_default(NULL, "maxrate", "9000000");

Does your service contract specify anything about min bandwidth?

@FaheemMitha well, its the prorated portion of the month that its been out for, so I'm fine with that.

@derobert Ok

@derobert it would take me some effort to make sense of that.

@FaheemMitha that's not too bad to read, its basically adding options to the command line

-c:v mpeg2video, -c:a ac3, etc.

@derobert ok

8:41 PM

@derobert - yeah, the man page kinda sucks for it. this is pretty good though. And huge.

@mikeserv that pretty much is the manpage... man ffmpeg-all

@derobert how much bitching did that cost you? I wanna say I couldn't have done it without at least 20 minutes, a hot temper, and 3-4 transfers.

I wouldn't be surprised if both are built from the same thing

Oh!

@mikeserv Nah, it didn't take any. Took one transfer to customer service (from technical support), that's it.

Didn't even have to wait on hold.

8:44 PM

ffmpeg-all is awesome

2

Verizon likes you.

@mikeserv there are also manpages for the different sections, e.g., man ffmpeg-filters

@mikeserv for $134.99/mo, they had better!

Yeah, that makes sense.

@derobert nah. I like the big ones. I wrote this sed script awhile back for parsing man stdout - it colors it and gets entire sections based on heading patterns I feed it as arguments.

It's one of the more useful things I've done.

anyone here?

shhh! he might hear you!

@mikeserv Parsing man output? Errr... wouldn't it make more sense to parse the input? Since that was intended to be machine-parsed...

8:56 PM

oh ok, anyway why linux sucks, i tried to install mupen64plus now

but it needs libboost_filesystem-1_49.so.1.49.0

that .so is not exists anywhere

its only exists for 64 bit

@derobert - yeah, but the output is too, to a degree. I just don't understand groff.

The HTML thing is doable though. But by the time I figured that out, I'd already written it.

@user965347 questions should be asked on the site. that's what it's for.

@user965347 and when you ask it on the site, please include relevant details like which distro you're running and where you got that mupen64plus package.

If you don't have a specific question, but want to share your thoughts on the universe, your holiday snaps, or just want to discuss the merits of emacs vs vi, this is the place for you.

e.g., on Debian stable apt-get install libboost-filesystem1.49.0 would fix that...

9:01 PM

Hint: emacs is better.

What @derobert said.

Hint: @FaheemMitha is a crazy person. That's why he likes emacs.

There's a whole site of crazy people at emacs.stackexchange.com.

@user965347 consider an actual user name. and prefer installing binaries if possible.

@FaheemMitha Yes...

World War 2 has been over for like 70 years, but Hollywood is still doing the Evil Nazi thing...

I'm watching the first Captain America movie.

Wow, and the Death March from Gotterdamerung too. How original.

@derobert - it does work though:

user image

I think this is a pretty recent version if you're interested.

9:20 PM

Wow, a m4 programming question.

@derobert The iso looks Ok. If I ask a question about this, would you answer it? I think I complete answer should include an explanation of the logic used.

9:35 PM

@FaheemMitha I guess I can try and answer it tonight..

@derobert Ok, shall I go ahead and ask the question then?

@FaheemMitha sure... though we do have an a/v site, wonder if it actually belongs there. No idea, not active there.

Anyway, I'm off. Be back later.

@derobert What site is that?

Did you mean video.stackexchange.com ?

Based on video.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic, probably not.

This is for people who want to make videos, I think.

Posted.

10:07 PM

@FaheemMitha - I dunno - do you already have the answer you want? I think you can vignette it or whatever.

@FaheemMitha - sorry, but I really suck at screenshots. imgur.com/VklqaMW

@mikeserv Well, i have a command that works, but Anthony actually understands it, I think.

what's the command?

I see Stephane finally posted an answer to my question...

I suck at that stuff too. I used to use it for live transcoding a long time ago, but I haven't done it in years.

ffmpeg -i input.mp4 -filter:v "scale='w=min(720,trunc((480*33/40*dar)/2+0.5)*2):h=min(480,trunc((720*40/33/dar)/2+0.5)*2)',pad='w=720:h=480:x=(ow-iw)/2\
:y=(oh-ih)/2',setsar='r=40/33'" -target ntsc-dvd output.mpg

10:19 PM

woah

[bash] "has inherited most of the misdesigns of ksh". Wonder what he meant by that.

From the last comment in ffmpeg.gusari.org/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1235

I thought there were professional security researchers whose job it is to sit around thinking about this stuff. Wonder what they were doing...

@FaheemMitha wrong link?

@Gilles I don't think so. Why?

@FaheemMitha The need to double quote variable expansions, for one. Even the author of ksh regrets that. Both bash and ksh did it for backward compatibility though, it wasn't a stupid decision

@FaheemMitha because the quote doesn't appear on that page

@Gilles People seem obsessed with backward compatability. Is it really that important.

@Gilles What quote?

10:27 PM

6 mins ago, by Faheem Mitha

[bash] "has inherited most of the misdesigns of ksh". Wonder what he meant by that.

@FaheemMitha When people have written millions of lines of code that rely on the behavior you consider broken, yes, it's important

@Gilles Oh, no, that is Stephane's answer. Different subject

That link was about the question I just posted.

I guess I wasn't being very clear. Sorry if that was confusing.

@Gilles The Stephane answer is at

unix.stackexchange.com/a/175098

I heard that the author of make wrote the first version and sent it around the office, then the next day he thought “hmmm, requiring tabs to mark commands isn't a good idea, I should change the syntax. Nah, people are already relying on this, better leave it alone.” Now this is taking backward compatibility too far.

Assuming that the story is true… I got it second-hand from one of the colleagues in question, but it still might have been exaggerated or misremembered

@Gilles I see. Is there any reason to require special whitespace at the beginning of commands?

Presumably someone, at some time, thought it was reasonable.

@FaheemMitha no

@Gilles Ok

10:35 PM

@FaheemMitha if the story is true, then someone was a single person and some time was a single day

Unfortunate decision, in that case.

@Gilles Hmm, I guess everything has to start somewhere. Any idea who the person was?

WP says Stuart Feldman

@FaheemMitha yes, working at Bell

@Gilles Ok

I guess I don't see why a new shell should feel obliged to keep compat with an older shell. Seems like an opportunity to fix things. I guess they were trying to make it easier for users with existing shell code.

Ah, there's the story from the horse's mouth:

> Why the tab in column 1? Yacc was new, Lex was brand new. I hadn't tried either, so I figured this would be a good excuse to learn. After getting myself snarled up with my first stab at Lex, I just did something simple with the pattern newline-tab. It worked, it stayed. And then a few weeks later I had a user population of about a dozen, most of them friends, and I didn't want to screw up my embedded base. The rest, sadly, is history.

not the very next day, but still only about a dozen users

1

A: Filtering invalid utf8

If you want to use grep, you can do: grep -av '^.*$' file in UTF-8 locales to get the lines that have at least an invalid UTF-8 sequence (this works with GNU Grep at least).

Huh. Wow. So it's that simple?

10:52 PM

@Gilles ah, nice detective work.

11:07 PM

It might not have been that simple when the question was posted. Older versions of GNU grep didn't do that.

and it's still not that simple

Except for -a, that's required to work by POSIX. However GNU grep at least fails to spot the UTF-8 encoded UTF-16 surrogate non-characters or codepoints above 0x10FFFF. — Stéphane Chazelas 3 mins ago

@Gilles nothing is ever that simple

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