10:52 PM
This room (the Digest room) will contain only the questions and the candidates' answers, sorted in chronological order: So each question will be posted followed by each answer, then the next question followed by each answer, etc.
As with before, this room is a gallery so that it can be read without interruption. If anyone has suggestions or corrections, please contact me in the main room.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 19 secs ago, by Rebecca Chernoff
Welcome to the Programmers Town Hall Chat
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 30 secs ago, by Rebecca Chernoff
Let the record show that we've got @ChrisF, @MarkTrapp, and @AnnaLear here.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 53 secs ago, by Rebecca Chernoff
How will you handle having a vote that is binding?
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 23 secs ago, by ChrisF
@RebeccaChernoff That depends. It's useful when there's obvious spam etc. but normally it does mean you have to hold off voting until others in the community have voted as well. I've started adding a comment on borderline posts to give a guide to my thinking and then revisiting when I see 2 or 3 votes on a post.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 17 secs ago, by Mark Trapp
@RebeccaChernoff I've been trying to use the binding vote as a last resort, when leaving comments doesn't work or there's a serious problem with the question. A lot of times, having a binding vote is helpful to speed an inevitable closure along (as @ChrisF alluded to).
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 16 secs ago, by Anna Lear
@RebeccaChernoff My plan is to use it with care. If there are already 3 or 4 close votes on a question and it's pretty clear where that's headed, then I wouldn't mind voting as well to make it official, as it were. In less clear-cut cases, I plan to leave a comment on the question and see what others think. Of course there are also the obvious situations like spam, obviously off-topic questions, etc, that can be closed directly.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 41 secs ago, by Peter Turner
I would use it in the extreme situations where no one else cares to close a question, but never once a question has been reopened.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 1 min ago, by ChrisF
The new flagged posts section in the moderator tools is very useful, coupled with the new flag options that users have, as it allows those with less than 3K to let us know what they think as well.
> Let the record show that we've got @ChrisF, @MarkTrapp, and @AnnaLear here. @PeterTurner has joined also.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 2 mins ago, by Josh
I have a question. What are your thoughts on the new "Everyone can edit" feature which was recently introduced and is still under development?
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 1 min ago, by Mark Trapp
@Josh It's been helpful; I think I've only hit one iffy suggested edit so far out of about 6 that I've been able to handle. It definitely shows there are a lot of low rep users get it far quicker than they get the needed rep to edit the normal way.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 44 secs ago, by ChrisF
@Josh I'm still undecided about it. I saw one case on Super User (I think) where a low rep user had edited a whole chunk of information about their problem into someone else's question rather than posting a new question referencing the first. I didn't see the outcome of that one. Having a page of recent edits in the tools section would help (unless I've missed it of course). It seems less of an issue on Programmers' at the moment as there's less traffic.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 53 secs ago, by Anna Lear
@Josh I'm still a bit unsure on what I think about it. I like the idea of edits going through at least one more person, especially on a site with fewer 2k+ users. I haven't noticed a lot of questions with pending edits on P.SE, so I'm not sure how well the feature's working yet.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 1 min ago, by Rebecca Chernoff
We all know Programmers had a bit of a rough start. In your opinion, are things good now? Better? Still a lot of things to figure out?
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 33 secs ago, by Mark Trapp
@RebeccaChernoff Much better. I think the vast majority of active users have come on board to the new guidelines, and the questions that got us the reputation we had at the beginning are much rarer.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 1 min ago, by ChrisF
@RebeccaChernoff Things seem to be settling down. Questions that I would have had to close "on my own" are now getting 2 or 3 votes - which is a sign that the higher rep users (at least) have got the message. There's quite a few lower rep users flagging things too.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 2 mins ago, by Anna Lear
@RebeccaChernoff I think things are better than they used to be for sure. There are still "grey area" questions, but those are getting rarer. The most ill-fitting questions have been asked so many times that they've made it into the FAQ and it's easier to deal with them now.
Candidate Peter Turner explained that he had to leave early. I will include answers from candidates who leave early and answer questions later at the end of this digest
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 3 mins ago, by Moshe
If anyone minds, I was stagnant on Programmers for a while. What was the challenge initially?
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 2 mins ago, by Anna Lear
@Moshe Initially P.SE tried to be a "anything goes so long as it's related to programming" site. The scope had to be narrowed down to prevent a lot of "what kind of pickles do programmers like" type of questions.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 2 mins ago, by Mark Trapp
@Moshe Programmers.SE had a bit of an identity crisis as being the first sanctioned subjective Stack Exchange. It had a wild west feel, with a lot of low quality questions like "What's your favorite programming cartoon?" and "Why are most programmers atheists?" being quite popular.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 2 mins ago, by ChrisF
@Moshe The site was started to be the place where everything off topic on Stack Overflow could be asked. It was soon realised that it wouldn't work and the guidelines had to be tightened up. There was some resistance to this initially, but the site is better for it.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 3 mins ago, by Anna Lear
@RebeccaChernoff I think right now the biggest challenge is advertising to other sites (most notably SO) what Programmers is all about, so we stop getting migrations from SO that don't fit in here but were moved just because they didn't fit SO.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 2 mins ago, by Moshe
What is an example question that fits on P.SE? Contrast that to an unacceptable question.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 59 secs ago, by ChrisF
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in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 54 secs ago, by Anna Lear
Here's an example of an off-topic question: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/40654/what-rare-or-unusual-desk-office-accessory-do-you-have-that-improves-your-work
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 8 secs ago, by Mark Trapp
@Moshe On topic: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/4063/why-did-an-interviewer-ask-me-a-question-about-people-eating-curry; question that can be answered from experience, has a knowable answer, and is almost exclusively in the domain of Programmers.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 21 secs ago, by ChrisF
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in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 1 min ago, by Mark Trapp
@Moshe Off topic: the "What's your favorite _?" questions are an easy example, but I point to Do programmers have higher tendency to be atheists than non programmers? as an example because it's a little less obviously bad. However, it's a perfect example of a question that fails nearly every one of the six subjective guidelines.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 34 secs ago, by Anna Lear
Here's an example of an interesting on-topic question: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/42930/are-specific-types-still-necessary
I believe I got all the answers to that question. If I missed any, please let me know in the main room. The next question was:
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 4 mins ago, by Michael Mrozek
How would you deal with a user who produced a steady stream of valuable answers, but tends to generate a large number of arguments/flags from comments?
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 1 min ago, by ChrisF
@MichaelMrozek I don't know. I've never seen such a user yet.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 28 secs ago, by Anna Lear
@MichaelMrozek I actually have a user in mind who I think contributes good content but is unnecessarily abrasive in doing so. My general approach is to deal with flags as they come in (which I can't do right now as a non-mod, but I'm thinking ahead here :)) and leave comments for the user asking them to tone it down if needed. Further action can be taken (suspension and whatnot) if the user crosses a line and community members complain.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 21 secs ago, by Mark Trapp
@MichaelMrozek Re the "problem user" (missed that one, sorry); I generally follow up on every flag, as even a broken clock is right twice a day. But generally the problem flaggers sort themselves out if they're not flagging correctly through the valid/invalid system.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 8 mins ago, by Justin 'jjnguy' Nelson
Question, what do you think is more important: A moderator that interacts well with the community, or one that is willing to put in lots of hard work cleaning flags?
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 9 mins ago, by ChrisF
@JustinjjnguyNelson I don't think it's an either/or situation. You have to interact well to gain the respect and trust of the community but also be prepared to put the work in.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 8 mins ago, by Mark Trapp
@JustinjjnguyNelson Ideally a moderator that does both; it's a false dichotomy. But a moderator who's willing to do the unpopular and tedious decisions is one that's worth having. A moderator doesn't need to be a friend, but he or she does need to keep the site running smoothly, ideally without anyone noticing.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 7 mins ago, by Anna Lear
@JustinjjnguyNelson I don't think that those two are mutually exclusive. It's important to be respectful to other community members, but ultimately a moderator has to make decisions and enforce rules.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 10 mins ago, by Michael Mrozek
When should questions be closed and just left alone vs. when should they be closed and deleted? That is, when do you believe in deleting content?
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 8 mins ago, by ChrisF
@MichaelMrozek Deletion is one of the things I'm bad at. I often think that something should be deleted, but leave it just in case the community disagrees with closure, but hardly ever go back. Which is my failing and something I must work at.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 8 mins ago, by Mark Trapp
@MichaelMrozek I'm personally against deleting history; it's one thing to close a question to prevent activity, but deleting a question, in many cases, is an unnecessary step. Deletion of questions is generally only useful when the question was asked in mistake (like an accidental double post) or contains illegal content or content that "shocks the conscience".
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 8 mins ago, by Anna Lear
@MichaelMrozek Some questions are obvious spam or double-posts and can be deleted. Otherwise, there's merit in leaving questions open to enable closing others as duplicates if needed. Preserving the history of bad questions is as important as preserving good questions.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 9 mins ago, by Michael Mrozek
A diamond will be attached to everything you say and have said in the past, including questions, answers and comments. Everything you will do will be seen under a different light. How do you feel about that?
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 7 mins ago, by Mark Trapp
@MichaelMrozek As a moderator, I've been okay with it. I stand by what I say and do regardless of my status: I attach my full real name and link my website that contains my contact information.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 7 mins ago, by ChrisF
@MichaelMrozek I didn't consider this at first, but then I happened to see some older posts and comments and thought that they could be taken in the wrong way now there was a diamond against my name. However, I do think that people are sensible if they see an old post.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 6 mins ago, by Anna Lear
@MichaelMrozek Having a diamond attached to my name isn't going to change much of how I do things or what I say (except for waiting longer to vote). I'll probably take some extra care in how I phrase things, but overall... moderators are human too.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 9 mins ago, by Justin 'jjnguy' Nelson
Do you prefer a moderator that is quick to make decisions and may make a few mistakes, or a moderator that is slow to act, but doesn't make mistakes? (These mistakes may be reversed)
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 7 mins ago, by ChrisF
@JustinjjnguyNelson In an ideal world moderators wouldn't have to act and so there'd be no mistakes made. However, we don't live in an ideal world. Now that the site has settled down and there are more users with close rights and access to the 10K tools I tend towards the being slow to act. It gives me time to consider the situation and look at something for a 2nd or 3rd time before closing (say). However, there are times when you have to act quickly and hope that you get it right.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 6 mins ago, by Anna Lear
@JustinjjnguyNelson I prefer a moderator who's somewhere in the middle. Although I'm sure everybody makes mistakes and the best we can do it just minimize them. As we get more 10k+ users, moderator involvement will be needed less and less, which is how it should be.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 6 mins ago, by Mark Trapp
@JustinjjnguyNelson I think a moderator who makes decisions is always more important than a moderator who sits on the sidelines: if a moderator doesn't intervene ever, there's no point to having him or her be a moderator. But more importantly, a moderator needs to be able to understand what he or she is doing and be able to defend their actions, and if they're wrong, admit the mistake. So there's always going to be some delay in acting as a moderator.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 2 mins ago, by Renesis
@JustinjjnguyNelson I don't see those as tightly coupled results - being quick to act doesn't necessarily mean that more mistakes will be made. It depends on the action taken. If a problem arises a moderator should always be quick to act, but that can be in the form of a comment, an edit, or if necessary close, migration, or deletion.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 8 mins ago, by Josh K
@JustinjjnguyNelson I would prefer a moderator that did more work rather then being as sociable. Of course the preferred moderator would be able to juggle both seemlessly but that isn't generally possible.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 40 secs ago, by Josh K
@Josh: I'm going to go back over the transcript and add answers to my Meta post, f that's alright.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 31 secs ago, by Renesis
@Josh, I'm not sure how the digest works, but I think I'll do the same as Josh K, and add answers to a Meta post.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 13 mins ago, by Justin 'jjnguy' Nelson
Do you you have any previous experience that will help with moderator duties?
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 12 mins ago, by Anna Lear
@JustinjjnguyNelson I don't have forum moderating experience, but I've wrangled people on roleplaying games that I ran for years. In terms of solving disputes, there are definite parallels. Other than that, I'm just keeping an eye on how the current mods operate and learning from that.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 12 mins ago, by Mark Trapp
@JustinjjnguyNelson I'm currently a moderator pro tempore of Programmers.SE, so I do know what the job entails. :) Beyond that, I've been a user of Programmers.SE since the first hour of private beta so I have experience with its domain, including its strengths and challenges.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 11 mins ago, by ChrisF
@JustinjjnguyNelson Yes. I'm currently pro tempore moderator on Programmers' and Web Applications and I've got more than 10K on SO, SU and MSO so I see the votes & flags there as well.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 12 mins ago, by Renesis
@JustinjjnguyNelson I don't see those as tightly coupled results - being quick to act doesn't necessarily mean that more mistakes will be made. It depends on the action taken. If a problem arises a moderator should always be quick to act, but that can be in the form of a comment, an edit, or if necessary close, migration, or deletion.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 10 mins ago, by Josh K
I invested a lot of time initially on SO to gain closing power (3k). After that I spend a healthy amount of time clearing questions, especially those off topic. I had been satisfied with the amount I was giving back at that point, until I hit 10k on P.SE, where I realized that there was a lot more I could be doing.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 10 mins ago, by Josh K
Not SO, SU, my mistake. Though I have 5k+ on SO.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 10 mins ago, by Josh K
Moderator duties elsewhere would be a few IRC chats, and a niche forum or two.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 13 mins ago, by Justin 'jjnguy' Nelson
Have you ever made a mistake with an edit/deleting/flag. If you did, how have you changed your behavior to keep that from happening again?
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 14 mins ago, by Anna Lear
@JustinjjnguyNelson I've also been commenting on questions and/or voting to close ever since I had enough rep to do so. In the absense of mod privileges, I've also been flagging posts/comments as (hopefully) needed.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 13 mins ago, by Anna Lear
@JustinjjnguyNelson I don't think I ever regretted an edit. I used to be a bit trigger-happy on the close votes, but now I tend to leave a comment first and come back later to see if a close vote is still warranted. In general, I'm just reminding myself to think before I click.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 12 mins ago, by Mark Trapp
@JustinjjnguyNelson When I first started, I was unclear about what dismissing something did, and accidentally dismissed a few valid flags that needed to be acted upon. I currently don't do that anymore :) Also, before I became a moderator, I took a person to task about a question about how to improve PHP because I didn't think it was a problem the question asker actually had; it turns out the asker was a core PHP developer. In that that instance, I helped the user work towards getting his question reopened.
in Programmers Town Hall Chat, 16 mins ago, by ChrisF
@JustinjjnguyNelson Oh yes and I expect I will again. If it's really clear I'll just reverse my decision, otherwise I'll flag the post for another moderator to review what I did and accept their decision.
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Transcript for
Feb '112
Feb3
♦ 
Programmers Town Hall Digest
The Town Hall Chat, but sorted with only questions and answers
