The Whiteboard

12:21 AM

@YannisRizos - When people are upset that questions were closed and they fear they might be deleted you say it's just to prevent new answers. When people are upset that closed questions were deleted you say that's what happens to closed questions that aren't improved.

Yannis Rizos

@psr All closed questions are on a path to deletion. On ProgSE, we tend to avoid deleting closed questions that add value to the site, regardless of whether they fit our guidelines or not. If you have evidence to the contrary, Meta is where you should post it.

psr

@YannisRizos - "@JimmyHoffa Closing != not worth having around. Simply put, closing == no more answers, kthxbai."

Yannis Rizos

@psr Your point being?

psr

Isn't there some contradiction between "All closed questions are on a path to deletion" and your response to JimmyHoffa?

Forgot the @YannisRizos. Never forget the YannisRizos.

Yannis Rizos

12:43 AM

@psr Where's the contradiction? Closures themselves are nothing more than a way to stop further answers, what happens to a question after it gets closed is a different issue. Some will certainly be deleted, some will be re-opened and most duplicates will be merged. "not worth having around" is only relevant to the first category.

...and it's not like we don't have quite a few years old closed questions around...

...but if it's guarantees you are looking for, then the only guarantee that a closed question won't be deleted is getting it re-opened.

@psr When you get to 10K you'll get access to a list of recently deleted questions. At that point you'll realize that we only delete crap. The only time that questions that weren't necessarily crap were deleted was during STCI, but those deletion candidates were advertised on Meta for at least two weeks prior to deletion (and if I remember correctly, only @Rachel stepped up and salvaged a few).

user20683

@YannisRizos @psr As a 10k+ user I can confirm that they are indeed a pile of stinking garbage. They smell like a combination of solder, magic smoke, and wet, feral turing machines.

psr

1:05 AM

@YannisRizos - During STCI I didn't salvage any because Mark Trapp's criteria for what would constitute salvaging were incomprehensible. What was wrong with them in the first place was frequently incomprehensible.

Yannis Rizos

@psr Good thing we aren't doing STCI anymore then.

Jim G.

1:20 AM

@psr: Suffice it to say, I didn't understand @Mark Trapp's moderation style. He just came across as a bitter man.

user20683

@JimG. I think much of that had to do with the site changes

user20683

and yeah I think he was bitter on some level

user20683

I'm not gonna judge him.

Jim G.

@World Engineer: Right. It's hard to based solely on your online experience.

user20683

@JimG. I'm basically the same as my online presence. Honest, chatty, knowledgeable, serious, and kind of a jackass now and then though I don't mean to be

Jim G.

1:25 AM

@WorldEngineer: That's actually a good point. // Although I've said that at least half a dozen times that if @Rachel and @YannisRizos went out for a beer (in the real world), they'd walk away with a newfound appreciation for each other.

user20683

@JimG. hard to say

Jim G.

@WorldEnginner: Emphasis: They both really, really want to make Programmers.SE a better place. They just disagree about how to do so.

user20683

@JimG. so do I. I tend to stand in the middle on that. I'd love for us to be able to be more permissive but I understand why we can't

user20683

there's a reason why I'm here all the time instead of reddit

user20683

the things that bugs me about bad questions here is: most of the time they are good questions, that haven't been rubber ducked properly

Jim G.

1:33 AM

@WorldEngineer: I understand why moderators are expected to uphold consistency; but I also know that Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." // Even if Stackexchange wanted most sites to be strictly Q&A, J think that it could carve out a niche for more permissive sites, which is why I'm often sympathetic to @Rachel's point of view.

user20683

@JimG. I think it's a case of being bitten by the dog

user20683

Programmers was the dog that bit

user20683

and it was a robozombie pitbull

user20683

so they went toward the other direction and have stayed there

Jim G.

@WorldEngineer: Ha!! // Fun Fact: Did you know that Rob Zombie designed the set for 'Pee Wee's Playhouse'?

user20683

1:35 AM

@JimG. did you know that James Cameron and James Horner got their big breaks on the same film?

user20683

and it wasn't Titanic

user20683

@JimG. I'm actually just barely too young for Pee Wee

user20683

+ I was in Germany from 87-90

Jim G.

@World Engineer: No, which movie?

user20683

@JimG. Battle Beyond the Stars

user20683

1:39 AM

it has a spaceship with boobs

user20683

it's actually really pretty good

user20683

particularly for 1980

Jim G.

@World Engineer: Ha! Cool.

Dynamic

@JimG I'm going to jump in on your previous discussion if you don't mind... you have to remember that SE is a network for expert Q&A. That doesn't mean that beginners aren't welcome but it means that the network is trying to be one of the most reliable source for info on everything. Subjective questions don't have any home here because there is no real answer. That's why you don't see "What language should I learn next?" In an Encyclopedia.

It's not that I'm against the questions, but that's why forums haven't completely died out...

Jim G.

@Dynamic: I really can't disagree with anything you just said.

@Dynamic: During 2010-2011, I feel like many borderline questions were abruptly and unilaterally closed, and I feel like that sucked some of the life out of Programmers.SE. For instance, some very excellent users from that time period no longer contribute here.

Fortunately, the current roster of moderators try to rehabilitate borderline questions. They understand that abrupt closures discourage new users.

But I'm often sympathetic to @Rachel 's point of view because I definitely shared her concern about the abrupt closures (approximately 1.5 years ago).

Dynamic

1:58 AM

@JimG Abrupt closures are sometimes needed to make a statement: "This question is NOT going to be dealt with on the site". I feel like we (as a community) do a good job of sending the message when needed and letting the questions play out if we aren't positive.

Jim G.

@Dynamic: I don't have a problem with abrupt closures. But I do have a problem with abrupt unilateral closures on borderline questions by moderators who aren't interested in an alternate point of vide

View.

user20683

@Dynamic I'd actually argue gaming, cooking and DIY do fine with "beginner" questions

user20683

I think it's more a question of rubber ducking and focus

user20683

and I think Stack Overflow kind of is the "beginners" version of us.

user20683

most beginners aren't concerned with code structure (they should be) or readability (again, they should be_

user20683

2:05 AM

*)

Dynamic

@JimG that doesn't happen often... Mods are usually lax with that close vote button

@World Yeah you're right...

user20683

@Dynamic I think Programmers is something of the odd man out along with physics and math and a few others where the gulf between beginners and pro is huge

Jim G.

@Dynamic: You're right. The moderation is much better now. I really can't recall the last unwarranted permanent unilateral closure on Programmers.SE.

user20683

at the same time, I think it's a question of wanting to learn something vs wanting a solution to a given problem only

user20683

I think we are very good at the former and punish the latter

Dynamic

2:08 AM

@WorldEngineer That's because most of the beginners questions on those sites are usually subjective

I gtg to bed...

user20683

@Dynamic salaam allaykum

user20683

anyway

Dynamic

@WorldEngineer Lol that just made my night :P

user20683

@Dynamic I took a semester of Arabic a decade ago

user20683

or nearly that

Jim G.

3:38 AM

"The cast and crew of "Mamma Mia" did a better job promoting tourism in Greece than any Ministry of Tourism effort. Spain, Italy, and Turkey are eating our lunch."

@YannisRizos: ^^^ Do you agree? news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5006025

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