The Whiteboard

12:55 AM

Welcome to SO. This question is off-topic here. For more info: help center. This might be better placed at Programmers. — Johnny Mopp 23 secs ago

Duga

3:10 AM

Duga

7:11 AM

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because licensing advice is off-topic on Stack Overflow. You may be able to get help on Programmers Stack Exchange, but read their faq carefully before proceeding. — Kyll 28 secs ago

gnat

8:06 AM

1

Q: asking too many questions?

Once I asked too many questions so I had to wait for a few days to ask more. Is there a way to check if this is the case somewhere rather than actually trying to ask a question? Shouldn't the system warn you if you are close to being put on hold because of asking too many questions?

^^^ now I kind of better understand why this user recently became more active at Programmers

Duga

10:05 AM

This type of question is not a good fit for stack overlfow - questions are expected to have clear, objective answers. This question would be a better fit for programmers.stackexchange.com — xaxxon 14 secs ago

Thomas Owens

11:58 AM

You know, I think that asking for references for jobs is stupid.

enderland

2:03 PM

@ThomasOwens it's good to ask for references for jobs, aka "who do you think we should ask to apply for this job?" :P

Thomas Owens

@enderland I mean the "give us three people to contact".

enderland

i know, I was making a joke

Thomas Owens

Maybe if you're a freelancer it's slightly more OK. But it's still not good.

Duga

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because licensing advice is off-topic on Stack Overflow. You may be able to get help on Programmers Stack Exchange, but read their faq carefully before proceeding. — Kyll 40 secs ago

Thomas Owens

Yeah. Why are so many companies terrible at hiring? Some friends have been telling me horror stories. Online personality and knowledge assessments, terrible interview questions, asking for references. Don't companies understand how to hire? It's not that hard...

People I graduated with - 5+ years of experience after graduation, plus internships/co-ops and some with online contributions (projects, Stack Exchange, etc.). Yet they are being made to jump through hoops that don't matter.

ratchet freak

2:23 PM

because they have to have some type of hoop to avoid a bad hire

Thomas Owens

Asking relevant questions in the screening and then the interview?

I think that's a good hoop to jump through.

Duga

2:42 PM

It is not remotely applicable to Stack Overflow and should/will be closed as off topic. It is also not appropriate for programmers.stackexchange.com. However, they do have a decent meta post that hopefully will point you in the right direction: meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/6483/… — David L 1 min ago

Duga

2:56 PM

@DavidL, thank you for your referral. The [link](meta.programmers.stackexchange) link is helpful and hopefully I can use the various links there to find further appropriate information. — XyberICE 35 secs ago

Simon Forsberg

I assume you folks are okay with "It is also not appropriate for programmers.stackexchange.com" is posted by @Duga

Ampt

Could you clarify? As in duga will be adding comments to posts telling people off?

Simon Forsberg

@Ampt Well, it would be cool if she would be able to tell the difference, but I wonder if it is worth trying that.

Thomas Owens

3:13 PM

@SimonForsberg I'm confused what you're asking.

Ampt

@SimonForsberg one one hand, you could use @gnat as a control to determine where you should yell at people, on the other hand, @gnat is already a bot that's solved this problem so....

2

EcstaticSnow

Shhh...

Silence

Simon Forsberg

3:30 PM

@ThomasOwens @Duga just posted chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/29391168#29391168 that mentioned programmers, but it was a suggestion to not post here. And I assume such comments are of interest to be posted here as well.

Ampt

ahhh, yeah, I see what you're getting at now. I think those are fine

gives us a little hope that things may work out better haha

Aaron Hall

When I come in to my desk and find that my computer was rebooted over the weekend at about 1 AM Sunday...

ratchet freak

@AaronHall windows update probably

Aaron Hall

And IE won't restore my tabs.

Thomas Owens

3:49 PM

@SimonForsberg Let @Duga post those. It's good to see what people are linking to. If there's a problem with their statement, we can correct those as well.

Aaron Hall

+1 Thomas

Thomas Owens

Just because they are trying to be helpful doesn't mean they are doing the best thing possible.

In other news, why does it seem like Rails apps are inherently monolithic? Or maybe I'm thinking about web app architecture wrong. But let's say I was building Stack Exchange in Rails. It seems easier to have one application with users, questions, answers, comments, chat rooms, chat messages, votes, flags, etc. It seems difficult to build a "user" component that is used by "chat" component and "qa" component. There's inherently coupling between the users and permissions in other components.

The same really goes for other MVC frameworks.

Aaron Hall

That's why architects make the big bucks?

Thomas Owens

Am I just thinking about the components and their interactions wrong?

Aaron Hall

Sounds legit to me, but I'm not an MVC guy.

If you have all the architecture time in the world, what I think you really want is a fairly static site with a microservice handling all the interactions.

Ampt

4:00 PM

rails is dumb - don't use rails

where do I go for my big-bucks?

Aaron Hall

pays Ampt through the nose

I apologize if there's any boogers.

Ampt

that's alright, that's what the laundering is for

definitely boogers.

Aaron Hall

I'm thinking of ordering this in bulk:

Campbell's Chunky Jazzy Jambalaya with Chicken Sausage & Ham Soup, 18.6 Ounce (Pack of 12)

Ampt

hmm.....

Aaron Hall

I add a splash of Tabasco and a couple of packets of black pepper. Sooooo good.

Reminds me of the kind of gumbo my family makes.

Thomas Owens

4:07 PM

At least I now see that "microservices" is just "component-based software engineering".

Because, apparently "component-based software engineering" isn't cool, hip, or current enough.

Ixrec

probably also because "component" is one of the most ambiguous terms imaginable

our monolith is also made out of things we call components

Aaron Hall

what I think you really want is a fairly static site with a microservice ~~handling all the interactions.~~ for each interaction?

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec I was going to say "not really", but it is. People do use component to refer to a class. A component, in my eyes, is just a self-contained module. Something that can be built or interpreted in isolation.

And then executed in isolation, too.

Aaron Hall

depends on the site too. I don't see how viewing an individual bank account could be anything but a stateful, non-url-able view.

Ixrec

@ThomasOwens that's close to what it means for us, but "microservices" strongly implies separate executables or at least separate processes, relying solely on network communication protocols to coordinate with each other

Thomas Owens

4:11 PM

@Ixrec For us, where I am now, "components" is a separate executable or process.

Ixrec

at least, if it doesn't imply that then it's a completely meaningless word

@ThomasOwens ah, ok, our C++ codebase is using the Lakosian definition of "component" which means "one or more .h/.cpp/.t.cpp file triples that form a coherent self-contained module"

Thomas Owens

Although there's also a smaller level. A component is the thing that reads raw hardware data and writes it to disk in a specified format. However, within that, the output sub-component is interchangable - how its stored on disk (individual message files versus some kind of rolling file versus something else entirely).

Ixrec

our "Date component" would never get its own executable, for instance

Thomas Owens

So there is a "Raw Data to Disk" component in the system as a whole. But within that component, there are interchangable components.

Everything is totally independent. There's no dependencies (other than a shared messaging routine, which is a library not an executable component).

Ixrec

for us most of the "components" are libraries

so yeah, overloaded words

Thomas Owens

4:15 PM

That's OK in the whole component-based software engineering world, too.

Aaron Hall

New idea for a blog: "Paralysis by Analysis"

Thomas Owens

Components can be executables or libraries. The idea is that they conform to an interface so they are swappable. For example, it shouldn't matter if I'm reading my user profiles from a text file or a database, I'm interacting with a swappable users component that all implement a common interface.

And when I change my users component, I don't need to rebuild or redeploy the rest of my system.

So if I change from a users text file component to a users database component, I redeploy one component. Only when you change the interface to a component do you need to worry about other components. And even then, there are good workarounds.

And for some things, that makes sense. But going back to the web application, aren't things tightly coupled anyway?

I mean, what actual good would a user component, a chat component, and a qa component actually provide? Especially since you probably have links between them, especially to users.

Ixrec

I can't tell if you're describing what "component" means in your company or if you're arguing there's something wrong with our definition

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec I don't think there's anything wrong with the definition. I just don't see how you can break down a single web application into components or microservices and have it make sense.

At least for the one I described.

Ixrec

I guess I'd have to scroll up for a while to find that description

I know our company gets huge benefits from it but that's because we have what you could call the equivalent of thousands of interrelated apps

Thomas Owens

4:22 PM

@Ixrec Can you give me an example of this?

Maybe the scale I'm thinking of is too small for microservices to actually matter.

Ixrec

well, there's the super-cliche example of the user info microservice which everyone's application calls if they need to get the current user's email or timezone or whatever

Thomas Owens

For example, I would implement Stack Exchange has a monolithic architecture. Would you agree with this?

Ixrec

since we shouldn't all have to know about the shape of the user database

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec That's true. But everything should probably care about a user object.

Ixrec

then there's the service for calculating VWAP (google it), which is a highly non-trivial calculation but many of our apps may or may not show it somewhere

@ThomasOwens objects are at a lower level than these architectural questions; the object still has to come from somewhere

Thomas Owens

4:26 PM

@Ixrec So there's the user data (the data elements that make up a user). It's easy to return those as XML/JSON/ProtoBuf/whatever from a data store. But surely you don't want to work with XML/JSON/ProtoBuf/whatever - you want to work with a class and instances of objects. So now, every service has a way to convert from data to an object.

Ixrec

wait, why would that be in the service? the service is what returns the XML/JSON/whatever

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec Yes. Let's say you had my example of a QA service, a chat service, and a users service. The QA service and a chat service don't want to work with XML/JSON/whatever. They want to work with user objects.

So they ask the user service for data and get it back in JSON, let's say. Now, they each have a method to turn JSON into a user class.

Ixrec

so what serialization format do they use for the user objects if not XML/JSON/whatever?

oh you're talking about services calling other services

Thomas Owens

Yeah. That's what microservices do.

Ixrec

in our case it's slightly more common for frontend code to call several backend services (or at least it is in the app dev land I'm in)

many of the simplest apps don't even need a dedicated service at all

Thomas Owens

4:30 PM

So maybe I'm thinking about too many small services.

Because if my every service had to call the user service to get a representation of a user and then convert that representation into a User object, that's a lot of duplicated code.

EcstaticSnow

I'm bored maybe I'll start the Doctor Who series

Ixrec

let's step away from the User example for a second

Thomas Owens

OK.

Ixrec

it is true that when you have a backend service calling other services, it's going to need to deserialize the responses

however, typically, every backend service that calls other services is going to be calling a different set of services

if you needed to have a user deserialization library and a vwap deseralization library and a whatever else deseralization library associated with every microservice, that would indeed be insane

Thomas Owens

Maybe my example is actually too simple to have services everywhere.

Ixrec

4:33 PM

it might be

Thomas Owens

And a monolithic application would indeed be better.

Ixrec

the way this all makes sense where I work is that we have infrastructure code in C++ and Javascript that can deal with arbitrary XML/JSON responses, rather than code that's tied to any single service's response

Thomas Owens

I wonder if deployment also matters. If there's a difference between giving access to a platform and standing up instances of a platform.

One platform for all users/customers versus many instances of the same platform in different configurations.

Ixrec

in C++ that takes the form of a code generator; I grab the XML schema of the service I want to call, feed it into the code generator, and now I have a bunch of header files with classes representing all the data types that service can return

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec Yeah. We do that in C++ and Java.

Ixrec

4:35 PM

in Javascript...well, we have the magic of JSON

Thomas Owens

Those object-models if the XML are libraries that are components.

Ixrec

@ThomasOwens yes, one of the massive benefits of microservices is that whichever service needs to scale can just have more instances on more machines

(of course you need some routing infrastructure to take advantage of that)

Thomas Owens

This gives me things to think about.

Ixrec

or even give them a separate cluster of machines if it's something truly expensive (our team recently got its own cluster =D)

note that in our framework it is possible for multiple services to be in a single executable, so the IPC cost can be eliminated even though the serialization/deserialization cannot (though if your requests/responses are large enough for that to be a problem, you screwed up already)

I suspect I might do something like that for your SE as microservices example

now I should probably get back to that movie I was watching

Thomas Owens

I think it's an extreme. Monolithic doesn't mean "poorly designed". It just means that it's really a single entity. And some things just make more sense as a single entity. It all depends on how you want to scale.

Ixrec

4:42 PM

and whether you're big enough to have the infrastructure needed to take full advantage of a non-monolith

Thomas Owens

Do you scale with instances or by distributing functions? If you scale by creating instances, then monolithic is totally OK. If you want to start moving functionality to different physical hardware, then you almost need components and services.

That's true, as well. You can refactor monolith to services.

Ixrec

the only thing we can say for sure is that your monolith should be sufficiently modular at the source code level that you could pull something out of it as a service should the need arise

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec And I think that's just good design.

Ixrec

yup

Thomas Owens

Although my next questions are understanding the idea of "library" in an interpreted language. I understand the idea of encapsulating functionality in a library (DLL, SO, JAR, whatever). Then, you build your library and include the build output in things that are executable.

However, without a build step, how you go about packaging up common "library" functionality in say, Ruby or Python.

Is it simply a directory on the path?

Ixrec

4:49 PM

well, the short answer is there usually is a build step even in interpreted languages, even if it's more about packaging/deployment than it is about building

Thomas Owens

So it is more about making sure the needed source files are simply copied to all of the places where it's needed.

Ixrec

the in-house Javascript framework I'm using at work has us "publish" our "bundles" of Javascript in AMD-like module files to a central location that takes care of minifying them and checking the dependency graph for violations and generating patches between versions so our clients don't have to download the whole thing every time (I know that's not a thing in browser-land; we're special)

@ThomasOwens that would be the absolute bare minimum, yes

in practice you'd want it to do all the sanity checks you'd expect a competent package management system or CI testing and linting suite to do

Thomas Owens

Yeah. You'd want to test and analyze that code for quality before just using it.

Ixrec

along with making it easy to work out exactly what version of what bundles client X was running when he said everything broke

in the browser world, that build step usually involves running your modules through a tool like wepback or browserify which iirc combine everything into one js file, possibly removing unused code entirely

Thomas Owens

That's true, too. Ruby has gems, Python has...eggs? Would you build libraries as gems and eggs, perhaos?

Ixrec

4:54 PM

@AaronHall what do you call python libraries? I'm pretty sure it's not "eggs"

Thomas Owens

Pretty sure it's egg. SO says so..

Ixrec

and of course, if you're using ES6/Typescript/PureScript/etc, then there's a very traditional-looking compilation step

Thomas Owens

Oh. Wheel replaced Egg.

Ixrec

oh it is eggs...how I have never heard of that term before

XyberICE

I'm an ASP.NET (C#/VB) web developer trying to break into a position that uses open-source js frameworks (specifically Angular.js or Knockout, the jobs I find interesting all seem to use this technology).

While I have a good deal of non-work experience in Angular (tutorials and building sample web apps), I think the lack of js framework work experience on my resume could be holding me back from securing an opportunity with a company that uses this technology. Are there official exams/certifications for Knockout or Angular.js that I can enhance my resume with? I've done quite a bit of web r…

Thomas Owens

4:57 PM

@XyberICE I would find it odd that not having experience in a particular framework would be the thing holding you back.

As a web developer, do you have experience in vanilla JavaScript or any JavaScript frameworks?

XyberICE

Yes, and several video screen caps of JavaScript/JQuery motion UI's that I've written

Thomas Owens

Is the work that you've done to learn Angular visible on the Internet? Questions or answers on Stack Overflow or projects posted to GitHub?

XyberICE

I get the impression from the questions I've been asked about Angular.js that since I've had no work experience they're uninterested in training a new employee.

Unfortunately, no I don't have working projects... I've been trying to put together a website that showcases my Graphic Design work and Coding work, but it takes a long time when you're working a 80+ job.

Thomas Owens

How many companies are you talking to or have done this? Many companies I've talked to tend to care more about someone who has related background and can learn. Although a few want someone who can jump in very quickly and already know their technology stack.

XyberICE

I do however have many questions answered on Stack Overflow...how do you recommend I bring this up in an interview?

Thomas Owens

5:01 PM

Don't wait for an interview.

Put it in your cover letter.

Link to your profile on your resume, even.

Cover letters are useful.

XyberICE

I've sent resume's to 40 companies... received around 10 phone/skype interviews and secured 2 in-person interviews. . .but still no success.

Yes, I always submit a cover letter with my resume custom written to the company

Thomas Owens

When you're writing a cover letter, do you point out how your current experiences map to the job requirements?

XyberICE

Do you think my current salary ($90k) and relatively short tenure with my current company (1+ yr) is making the interviewers gun-shy?

whatsisname

what region?

Thomas Owens

Yeah. Region matters.

XyberICE

5:04 PM

Yes, I find key areas the job position reqests in candidates and that the company highlights on their web pages and illustrate in the cover letter how my skills can apply to those points.

Chicao

Sorry, Chicago

Thomas Owens

I don't know much about the salaries in Chicago. You should check GlassDoor. If you are asking for too much, then yeah, that could be a reason why.

Anyway, I've got to run and talk to some people.

XyberICE

Cool, thanks for the tips!!

Anyone think it could turn off prospective employers if you only have a 1+ year tenure with your current employer?

How much time should I wait? I didn't think it would mean much but I'm having some difficult headway in securing in-person (or close to final interview) interviews.

Ampt

how long have you been doing dev work? 90k isn't outrageous for chicago

if you're like 1 year out of school and asking 90k, that may pose some questions though

XyberICE

15 years

Ampt

then 90k seems low

1 year at the current place is fine - as long as you don't have a string of five 1-year jobs in a row

XyberICE

5:16 PM

I'm just worried because employers usually ask my previous salary. . .and I notice most of the other jobs (which I haven't applied for) that are in the area I'd like to move (UI Design & Implementatin) have lower stated salaries ($60-$80)

Ampt

oh you want to be a UX designer/architect?

XyberICE

Nope, previous was 7 current is 1+ yr

Ampt

yeah... those salaries do not compete with dev salaries

XyberICE

No, I'd like to do BOTH implementation (dev) and design (I have quite a bit of experience in Graphic Art)

Aaron Hall

@Ixrec I think it would be most correct to say that Python libraries are commonly referred to as modules. If you can import the name, it's a module, regardless of the technology used to deliver it.

Ampt

5:18 PM

@XyberICE those positions aren't rare, but not as common as dev. if you're good at it, you can ask a lot more than 90k

Aaron Hall

>>> import array
>>> array
<module 'array' (built-in)>
>>> import collections
>>> collections
<module 'collections' from '...\Pkgs\ext-17081651\win32_vc9\lib\python2.6\collections.pyc'>
>>> import pandas
>>> pandas
<module 'pandas' from '...\Pkgs\eggs\pandas-0.10.1.qz1-py2.6-win32.egg\pandas\__init__.py'>

XyberICE

The problem is the market seems to only see a designer (lower salary) or a developer (higher salary) . . .I can't get anyone to recognize that I'd like to do both

Ampt

look for "front end developer"

or creative developer

don't look for "designer"

that reads as "can't code"

XyberICE

I have a portfolio besides my resume and several screen recordings of motion UI's I've developed

Yep, Front-End Developer is the term I have on ALL of the job board searches

Ampt

granted the places that seem to be doing the front-end dev work seem to be mostly consulting shops (from my perspective, a consultant)

XyberICE

5:20 PM

Maybe I need to look for smaller companies (<100). . . I may be wrong, but it seems that larger companies really pigeon-hole you into a Creative or a Developer

Ampt

I think that's going to vary between large companies

but yeah, most of the smaller places value someone who can do both

XyberICE

Ok, that's something to look into. . .maybe I should look at Front-End Design consulting shops rather than a software company

Ampt

just food for thought.

Thomas Owens

Are you looking for senior positions?

XyberICE

Thanks @Ampt. @tho

Thomas Owens

5:23 PM

At 15 years of experience, I would expect someone to be applying for senior or principle positions and have a demonstrated ability to learn new technology.

XyberICE

@ThomasOwens, yep, but Senior Technical positions. . .rather than a management role

Thomas Owens

I've found that senior and principal positions do tend to involve mentoring junior developers and some involvement in the interview and hiring process. Perhaps even leading teams.

XyberICE

Yep, my resume and experience definitely indicates I can learn new technologies. . .I have use over a dozen languages over the time I've been developing.

@ThomasOwens, yea I'm seeing that. . .while I don't mind mentoring, I shy-away from leading a team and managing individuals. I'm more of a doer rather than a delegator

Thomas Owens

From what I've experienced here in Boston from companies contacting me, they don't care that I don't have a background in technology X or Y, for the most part. Just that I have demonstrated experience designing software and will learn X or Y.

XyberICE

@ThomasOwens, yeah, it seems like this is exactly what they say during any preliminary (phone) interviews, but I eventually get turned down due to "the skill set we're looking for is highly specified and requires the most thorough knowledge. It's a high bar, but you didn't make it."

I've taken that to mean that I have to come in with some proof that I have working experience in exactly the technologies that they use. . .maybe I'm misreading the response?

Another thing I've seen that is mildly annoying is I NEVER get calls from companies. . ._only_ recruiters. The only time I correspond with a company is if I initiate the contact with a resume and cover letter. Any ideas why companies aren't biting, but recruiters massively contact me?

Thomas Owens

5:33 PM

If that's the exact wording, it either means exactly what it says or it could mean that they found someone with a matching skill set. Personally, I don't like people tied to a particular technology stack. Technology changes. I want people with some breadth of knowledge and adaptability.

@XyberICE For most companies, you're going to have to initiate contact. That's normal, IMO.

Only once have I been reached out to by a company's internal recruiter.

XyberICE

Ok, good to know. I was worried I was doing something wrong there.

Thomas Owens

It makes sense, really. Many companies pay recruiters to find people. Their employees are there to get people in the door after they have been matched by a hired recruiter.

XyberICE

I've always used recruiters in the past, but this time I'm determined to find my next position myself through direct submission. I think I'll find a much better match for my somewhat unusual skill-set.

Thomas Owens

And that one company that reached out to me? They are a prime contractor or customer on some of our projects.

I'm pretty sure they were looking for people with knowledge of the hardware and software systems we make to flip to their side. I'm not interested in leaving Boston, though.

XyberICE

Yep, understood. I feel the same here in Chicago.

Thomas Owens

5:37 PM

The job posting they sent me was the exact same technology and versions used on some of our projects, to the point where it was uncanny.

Telastyn

it also varies on locale. In some places, most of the jobs are via contract, so more recruiters.

Thomas Owens

There are companies that will pay you to be a full-time employee and then contract you out to various other companies.

So you get benefits and steady salary, but also move around to different companies on contracts. It could be a possibility.

XyberICE

Yeah, I've done that. . .it didn't really work for me. Good pay, but unpredictable where you work from one day to the next... sometimes contracts are shortened etc..

Thomas Owens

Personally, I want to be employed by the company where I work, not an agency or something.

I've worked with people who love that, though. Keeps them learning new stuff all the time.

XyberICE

Yep, exactly the same as I feel.

Since I've put out over 40 resumes and cover letters with little final interviews, I'm just trying to find a way to increase the effectiveness of my submissions. . .I think getting a web site demoing various technologies I know would be helpful and maybe switching to looking at smaller companies.

Well thanks @ThomasOwens, good food for thought. I appreciate your advice. TTYL

Thomas Owens

5:45 PM

@XyberICE No problem. Good luck.

Robert Harvey

@ThomasOwens How did you learn about software design before you had anything to design? Did you go work for a company where you got thrown in the deep end? Did you make up fictional scenarios?

Aaron Hall

In my local area, the wisdom on getting hired without experience (like they've been pushing around at my meetup group) is to have a killer github, have a blog, and be willing to do any technology.

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey Year 2-5 of my degree program was software design. Year 2 had an intro to OO design course, and then the rest of the years had courses in enterprise applications (database-centric), concurrent systems, distributed systems, embedded systems and on and on, plus an architecture course.

So I would say...fictional scenarios?

And these courses also tended to include working with legacy code.

There were also co-ops mixed in there, and I (and most others) worked on existing projects on their co-ops.

Robert Harvey

Were they realistic fictional scenarios?

There seems to be a need for a website that contains detailed examples of enterprise design; I haven't seen one out there yet. It would be an enormous undertaking.

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey They tended to be focused on teaching something in particular. But they weren't totally unrealistic.

They were of a small enough scale to happen in a classroom and lab setting. But designed to showcase particular problems.

Robert Harvey

5:57 PM

Examples are in short supply. There are plenty of folks on the Internet who are willing to explain their own understanding of those patterns, but very few have detailed examples.

Thomas Owens

By the time you get into detailed examples, a lot of times you're getting into proprietary solutions.

Robert Harvey

Perhaps there are MOOCs. Where did you go to school?

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey Rochester Institute of Technology - Software Engineering.

Kit Z. Fox

Oh, we probably have friends in common.

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox o_o

@Snowman Wow.

Kit Z. Fox

6:00 PM

Well. It's a stretch. Two friends of mine graduated from there. The elder said I reminded him of one of his college roommates. So.

Thomas Owens

I know a couple of people who started in the late 1990s, in one of the first class.

He was actually my boss at my first summer job.

Kit Z. Fox

Snowman's your boss?

That's awkward.

Thomas Owens

No.

user114359

nope

Kit Z. Fox

That was ... funny? Right?

I know a guy who was on the rugby team.

Thomas Owens

6:01 PM

Most of the people I know were there between 2006 and 2013/2014. If they were there in the time window, I may know them.

Kit Z. Fox

Oh. Then no.

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox There was a guy, not sure if he was CS or SE, that was on the rugby team.

Kit Z. Fox

Was he a Marine too?

Thomas Owens

I graduated in 2011. I can't do math.

user114359

ooooh they have a rugby team now? I don't remember that. Sports weren't big there from what I remember

Kit Z. Fox

6:02 PM

I think he was there a little earlier than ... oh. Um. You might have overlapped then.

Thomas Owens

Hmm. I do know a guy who was in the military. But he was Army and not on any sports team. I don't think the rugby guy was in the military, though. Unless he went into the Marines after college.

Kit Z. Fox

2007? Maybe 2008.

user114359

I remember they had just built brand-new dorms (I moved halfway through the year), and we spent a lot of time circumventing the "dry campus" rule.

Kit Z. Fox

I'm not sure when he was in the Marines.

Thomas Owens

@Snowman Only the dorms were dry when I was there. Apartments, plus some of the campus food places, served beer.

Kit Z. Fox

6:04 PM

What was the name of the guy on the rugby team?

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox I'm trying to remember...I can't. I want to say Nick, but that doesn't seem right when I say it.

user114359

@ThomasOwens they must have changed it, then. The whole campus was dry except for one university-run bar that would serve one drink per student per day. Anything off-campus was, well, not university rules.

user114359

I was underage regardless

Thomas Owens

They opened Salsarita's my last year. It was a Mexican themed place on the academic side of campus. The bartender there...didn't really enforce the one-drink thing. We would go to senior project a few deep.

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens Max?

Do you know his rugby nick?

user114359

6:08 PM

When I was working on my M.S. (different university) I had two classes back to back one semester and the first was canceled one day. My wife was there too to study. Well, we ended up at the campus bar. After 5-6 beers I went to my second class. Made it much more bearable, that professor was... special.

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox Maybe. I didn't know him that well. More like in passing.

user114359

I don't think my wife ever did make it to her study group

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens My friend's rugby nick was Private Pyle. Real name is Adam.

Thomas Owens

Yeah, I know that's not the guy I knew.

Kit Z. Fox

He was friends with Max as well. He was SE, Max was CS.

shrugs Well, that was a fun game.

Thomas Owens

6:11 PM

I am curious if there's someone that knows both of us out in the world, somewhere.

Ampt

what, I don't count just because I'm a sock?

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens Probably. We don't live that far apart.

And we work in the same industry.

@Ampt Of course you count, my sock friend.

But I don't know you in real life.

Whereas Thomas and I have probably stood next to each other on the T.

He's probably in a cube next to my best friend from school right now.

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox The odds aren't good there. I'm on the end of a row. There are only two occupied cubes next to mine.

Kit Z. Fox

And you've doubtless heard of my ex-sister-in-law.

Thomas Owens

Perhaps?

Is she also a fox?

Kit Z. Fox

6:23 PM

I'm trying to think of a polite answer to that question.

No. She's not a fox.

She's classic borderline personality disorder.

Thomas Owens

Hm. I don't know anyone who does that.

I know some people who went to Harvard, but only one person who went to the business school. And I don't know that one person that well - she's a friend's girlfriend.

And no one who works there.

Kit Z. Fox

Excellent.

I get a little worked up when I think about her.

Right. So I got a new chair!

Also a new microphone.

Thomas Owens

What kind of chair?

Kit Z. Fox

I believe it's called "Skate".

Yes. Like this one: staples.com/Skate-Black-Mesh-Ergonomic-Chair-w-Black-Frame/…

Thomas Owens

It looks similar to the chair I use back home.

But I don't remember what mine is called.

Kit Z. Fox

6:30 PM

It's sooo comfortable.

I also got a Blue mic, but I haven't tried it out yet.

So what are the first names of the two people in the occupied cubes?

Or are you done playing this game?

Thomas Owens

I'm done for now.

Kit Z. Fox

kthxbai

On the other hand, @Ashley and I are like old friends who never actually knew each other.

user15026

6:56 PM

@KitZ.Fox Yeah, that's about right.

Kit Z. Fox

Hello, my friend, hello.

user15026

Hello! :)

Kit Z. Fox

I have a new mic, and I am planning a new video.

user15026

Yay! I look forward to it :)

Kit Z. Fox

I'm also thinking of a video with the Hatter as the main character.

Because it seems this is a Thing I enjoy doing now.

user15026

6:59 PM

I like this plan.

Duga

Your question is too broad after the edit. Such a topic belongs more on Programmers.StackExchange than on Stack Overflow, since it's asking for design philosophy. — TylerH 25 secs ago

Duga

8:45 PM

Anyway, the question is far too broad for SO. It would probably be better suited for Programmers SE, but if you decide to pose it there then please do delete it here. — John Bollinger 1 min ago

Aaron Hall

hey hey hey! I'm in a much better mood thanks to that chilidog I just chowed down. :)

Duga

10:36 PM

There really isn't an objective measurement for "cleanest", so this question, as it currently stands, is asking for opinions... which is off-topic. Please consider adding some kind of measurement such that an answer can be deemed "correct", or look to see if your question may be on topic for Programmers by reading what's on-topic there. — Mike McCaughan 17 secs ago

Transcript for