The Whiteboard

12:10 AM

heyoh, does anybody know a programming language that allows arbitrary return types, and also allows function overloading during runtime based on these mutable types? obviously this can be simulated in C with structs but it's painful.

user55340

Arbitrary return types is easy... though I'm not sure what you're looking for with the function overloading based on the mutable types.

user35945

for instance if you have foo(){..if a return int else return double..} and then bar(int x) and bar(double x), I would like a language where bar(foo()); would be perfectly reasonable.

user55340

#!/usr/bin/perl

sub foo {
  $arg = shift;
  if(ref($arg) eq "HASH") { print "got a hash\n"; }
  if(ref($arg) eq "SCALAR") { print "got a scalar\n"; }
  if(ref($arg) eq "blarg") { print "what is a blarg?\n"; }
}


%h = ();

foo(\%h);
foo(\"bar");

foo(bless \%h, "blarg");

user55340

~/I $ perl bar.pl
got a hash
got a scalar
what is a blarg?

user55340

Now, I'm not really overloading there... because perl doesn't do that. But you can see I'm passing in a dynamic type there that is being handled as that type.

user55340

12:17 AM

The type was created at runtime.

user35945

hm yes to be honest I'm still trying to figure out and formulate what I'm looking for. this switch statement is an alternative in any language, but I realize that it won't be much less work declaring all the individual functions for the different types than having one function with all the cases... hm.. thanks anyways.

ratchet freak

use OOP?

return a type with a instance method foo and return different objects that have their own implementation

so it become bar().foo()

and which foo gets called depends on the return type

user55340

while int foo() { if (...) return 4; else return 4.2; } would be problematic... Number foo() { if (...) return 4; else return 4.2; } would work as both Integer and Double extend from the same base class.

user55340

And than taking a Number object... and working off that.

user55340

Though most any duck typed language would do what you want without any other hoops.

ratchet freak

12:25 AM

yeah but you'd still need to explicitly check the type

or at least the exposed functions

user20683

@user35945 Lua should be able to do that

user20683

you could really abuse multiple returns and tuple packing

user55340

Though the OO approach is probably the best for maintainability.

amon

6:43 AM

@MichaelT But Perl has a number of extensions that do overloading, usually called “multi subs” or “multi methods”. Recently, I've been using the Kavorka syntax extension module for this kind of stuff. It allows us to specify function signatures incl. types, and can therefore handle multi methods.

Jörg W Mittag

1:40 PM

Here's a question that I have been asking myself from time to time: what is the name of the JVM originally produced by Sun and now by Oracle? I usually call it "HotSpot", but that's the name of the compiler, not the JVM. (Well, technically, there are two compilers, and they are called "C1" and "C2" …)

IMB's JVM is called J9, the other JVM by Oracle is called JRockit, the JVMs by Oracle Labs are called Squawk and Maxine, Oracle's JVM for embedded devices is called KVM … but what's the name of their desktop and server JVM?

Ampt

2:21 PM

@JörgWMittag are you sure it had a name?

May have just been called the Java Virtual Machine back in the day before there was more than one

ratchet freak

given the propensity for 3 letter acronyms they had...

Jörg W Mittag

But that's not the JVM that was part of Java 1.0 and 1.1. That one was a pure interpreter. There was a separate JIT compiler developed and sold by Symantec, later licensed by Sun, but the JVM we know now was a completely independent project developed by a company called Animorphic Systems, who produced the Anamorphic Smalltalk VM (powering the StrongTalk system), which was then bought by Sun.

However, I just found a copy of Animorphic Systems' press release about the buy, and in that release they talk about the HotSpot(TM) Smalltalk and Java Virtual Machines, so I guess that's the official name after all.

LongView Technologies L.L.C. was the name of the other company involved in the development. Ironically, those two companies were founded by the developers of the Self VM, which was developed at Sun, but abandoned because the company didn't see how a VM for a dynamic OO language could be useful for the company :-D

ratchet freak

kinda like how S.Jobs was let go and then rehired?

Jörg W Mittag

Google's V8 is based on the same VM, BTW, and is being developed by the same people who developed the Self VM, Anamorphic Smalltalk VM and HotSpot JVM.

ratchet freak

2:36 PM

small world

Jörg W Mittag

The other irony is that Self is one of the major inspirations for ECMAScript, which essentially lost Sun the web. IOW: Sun already owned the language that would later become ECMAScript, and they owned the VM that would later become HotSpot and they let both go.

ratchet freak

short sighted CEOs and all that

Jörg W Mittag

Maybe. OTOH, developing a brand-new programming language is kind of a long game, and that's something they did commit to.

ratchet freak

and the bean counters said to choose between the language and the VM

Jörg W Mittag

Actually, I meant Java.

On the hand, they were short-sighted and dropped Self.

OTOH, they were long-sighted and did Java.

Weird.

ratchet freak

2:42 PM

or partially blind

they probably thought the VM wouldn't pan out because compiled was faster

Ampt

Can't win every battle I guess

Jimmy Hoffa

3:14 PM

@JörgWMittag wow I never knew StrongTalk had any relation to the JVM, I've played with it, shit Java should have taken their UI framework as well while they were at it....

Jörg W Mittag

The Anamorphic VM is pretty interesting, because it is based on mixins, not classes as the fundamental "template". Even in a language like Smalltalk, the layout of objects in memory is fixed at compile time (unlike Ruby or Python, in Smalltalk instance variables need to be pre-declared at compile time). And many optimizations are based on that.

But Mixins don't know their superclass, so they don't know their layout. This precludes many optimizations that traditional Smalltalk VMs make. And still, it was by far the fastest one around. That's also what makes it such a nice fit for V8.

user55340

@JörgWMittag JRockit was by BEA... who was the major competitor to Sun's JVM instance back in the day (Weblogic was the app server)... Oracle bought them too.

user55340

There used to be running arguments about if HotSpot or JRockit was better/faster... I wonder if those devs sit near and just glare at each other.

Jörg W Mittag

Yeah, I know. Squawk and Maxine were also from Sun Research, and KVM from Sun.

Isn't there are merger planned? I thought all remaining features from JRockit (except persisting compiled native code between instances) were to merged by Java 9/10?

user55340

Dunno... though I wouldn't be surprised if there was still a free vs commercial split.

Jörg W Mittag

3:22 PM

I think the JRockit management tools are already available for HotSpot for a fee.

And the near-realtime GC for JRockit was also always a paid option, and never part of the free (as in beer) edition, so they're probably gonna keep that, even if merged into HotSpot. Although HotSpot's collectors are pretty darn good anyway.

And regarding the native code persistence, I think they even removed that from JRockit, because they found out that it was just not worth the hassle. You basically open up a giant security hole, by injecting native code into a running JVM instance, and JIT compilation is pretty fast.

It might have made sense for severs back then, but in the could nobody cares if your instance takes 10s to spin up. There's still a couple dozen of 'em running anyway.

Jimmy Hoffa

@JörgWMittag Makes sense

like you said - that kind of layout makes sense for SmallTalk

@JörgWMittag where does Self play into that? Did this Anamorphic company do Self after StrongTalk on the VM?

I always like finding out about influences on modern languages like that which people rarely know of and aren't obvious at all

Jörg W Mittag

Anamorphic and LongView were founded by the Self VM guys, after Sun cut funding to the Self project.

Or at least they were hired by whomever founded to company.

Self is older, the first release was 87, I think.

So, the lineage is Self VM -> Anamorphic Smalltalk VM -> HotSpot JVM -> V8

Even before working on the Self VM, Lars Bak also worked on the Beta VM, but I don't think that is part of the lineage.

However, in between leaving Sun and getting hired by Google, he developed Resilient Smalltalk (a Smalltalk for writing device drivers, operating systems, hard-realtime and embedded systems) and OOVM, not the fastest, but maybe the most efficient Smalltalk VM in terms of memory and CPU usage.

The design of OOVM apparently also influenced V8.

In particular, having no interpreter, and only a not very highly optimizing but in turn very fast and small compiler.

mebu83

3:44 PM

Hi there

Ampt

@mebu83 Hi! If you have a question, feel free to ask. You don't need to ask to ask a question, but there's no guarantee you'll get an answer. Coffee is served all day, and lunch is at Noon sharp. We thank you for choosing the Whiteboard!

ratchet freak

and watch out for the monads; they bite

user15026

@Ampt Hey that means it is almost lunch!

Jimmy Hoffa

@JörgWMittag I know Self as a language is older, but I didn't know anything about it having an important VM, mostly all you ever read about self is the prototypal type system

Ampt

@AshleyNunn quite right! And since it's Tuesday, that means the weekly Chipotle outing!

user15026

3:47 PM

@Ampt Aww Canadian me is going to have to miss that, we don't have cool things like that :P

user55340

@AshleyNunn Just remember, he's missing out on poutine.

Ampt

@AshleyNunn But you do have Tim Hortons, which, from all accounts is a magical land of coffee and awesomness

user15026

(Also it's Tuesday? Where did Monday go? I have seriously been thinking it is Monday all morning)

user15026

@Ampt They lie.

user15026

@MichaelT Poor soul

user55340

3:48 PM

And tire money!

Ampt

@AshleyNunn Don't ruin it for me!

I want to ~~pretend~~ believe!

user15026

@Ampt Sorry!

user15026

@MichaelT *Canadian Tire Money

user15026

:P

Ampt

Yeah, it's not just any tire money, it's Canadian Tire Money™

Jimmy Hoffa

3:50 PM

@AshleyNunn not to be confused with a Canadian Tire Monkey - an alpine creature known to warm itself in wheel wells

Ampt

what's minimum rep for chat again? 20?

1

Q: Microchip XC8: How to pack code against an upper limit?

I have a project for a PIC16F1454 that needs some custom linking. Basically, I've separated my code into two parts that can be downloaded separately in the field and thus update (almost) all of the flash memory, including the bootloader. As part of the plan to avoid bricking itself, I have this...

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt unfortunately something less than your rep

Ampt

Can I get some attention on that question so I can get him in a chat room?

@JimmyHoffa Aww you'd miss me. Who would you spout about monads to if I wasn't here?

user15026

@JimmyHoffa That reminds me of the time someone brought a car into my dad's work and there were squrrels nesting in the exhaust

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt same people I do know, everyone I see.

@Ampt You want Andy in here?

Ampt

3:57 PM

@JimmyHoffa AaronD, and yes please

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt just based on the subject matter, I'm claiming Andy (OK I didn't read the whole Q)

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Lol the question is legitimate. I've faced the same thing in the past, and Andy has never wanted to do anything as small as a Microchip processor

We've already got a comment chain going but I'd like to just chat with him

user55340

@Ampt 20 anywhere on SE.

Ampt

@MichaelT he has 18 across the network

user55340

AaronD

21 2

.net c# winforms

Jimmy Hoffa

4:01 PM

@Ampt that's because he hasn't heard of them yet

user55340

20, anywhere, on one site, across the network.

Ampt

Odd, it was giving me an error saying that he only had 18 rep... I just invited him and gave him the link. We'll see if that does it

user55340

2+2=5 must have gotten linked somewhere again... I've gotten about +200 on code golf over the past few days.

user55340

@Ampt I blame caching.

Ampt

@MichaelT Let's go with that.

user15026

4:06 PM

@MichaelT 2+2 = 5?

Ampt

@AshleyNunn Oh yes. It's magical. Black Magic to be precise.

user55340

461

A: Write a program that makes 2 + 2 = 5

Java Reflection is indeed the right way to go with abusing Java... but you need to go deeper than just tweaking some values. import java.lang.reflect.Field; public class Main { public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception { Class cache = Integer.class.getDeclaredClasses...

user15026

@MichaelT Very nice! Although if you did that it would piss people off and break things, no?

user55340

Its gotten reddited, hacker newsed... might just be periodic people adding answers to a super popular question.

user55340

@AshleyNunn absolutely.

user15026

4:08 PM

@MichaelT Glad I can follow that : D

Jimmy Hoffa

let 2 + x = 2 + (x-1) in 2 + 2 <-- what will happen? Anyone?

Ampt

that would make 2+2 = 3 by the looks of it

wouldn't you want let 2 + x = 2 + (x+1) in 2 + 2 ?

user55340

@AshleyNunn thedailywtf.com/Articles/Disgruntled-Bomb-Java-Edition.aspx

user55340

package dont.try_this.at_home;

class ValueMunger extends Thread {
    public void run() {
        while(true) {
            munge();
            try { sleep(1000); } catch (Throwable t) { }
        }
    }

    public void munge() {
        try {
            Field field = Integer.class.getDeclaredField( "value" );
            field.setAccessible( true );
            for(int i = -127; i<=128; i++)
            field.setInt(
                Integer.valueOf(i),
                // either the same (90%), +1 (10%), or 42 (1%)

Ampt

setting the randomness to something more akin to .99999 would be more evil I think

Jimmy Hoffa

4:13 PM

@Ampt it's tricky, 2 + x is defined as 2 + (x - 1), so when it calls 2 + (3-1) = 2 + 2 = 2 + (2 - 1) = 2 + 1 = 2 + (1 - 1) = 2 + 0 = 2 + (0 - 1) = ...

user55340

Close (and delete votes) please: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/255167/…

Jimmy Hoffa

each reduction causes it to match on the "2 + x" pattern which I defined to have a further reduction to something that matches that pattern again

user15026

@MichaelT o.O

Ampt

but you're limiting it to 2+2 I thought

user55340

@Ampt thats from the daily wtf.

Jimmy Hoffa

4:15 PM

@Ampt the 'in' part of the clause just says "given the definition on the left of the 'in', use that definition "in" the execution defined on the right side of the 'in'"

2+2 becomes 2 + (2 - 1) which becomes 2 + 1 which it has a definition for that says it is 2 + (1 - 1) which reduces to 2 + 1...it's a recursive definition of the unary function 2+

Chris Okyen

Hello

Ampt

38 mins ago, by Ampt

@mebu83 Hi! If you have a question, feel free to ask. You don't need to ask to ask a question, but there's no guarantee you'll get an answer. Coffee is served all day, and lunch is at Noon sharp. We thank you for choosing the Whiteboard!

Jimmy Hoffa

@JörgWMittag why should we care about open recursion? Relying on a type dispatcher to indirect things just strikes me as pointless complexity anytime you have arbitrary depth lexical closures. What does using ancestral closure bindings to share data and higher order functions to enclose private values fail on which open recursion through a type system's dispatcher is a better approach?

Chris Okyen

I had a question that I think is not in scope of any SE sites: webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/66783/…. They suggested going to a specific website or web app. What would the most productive and effective way be to see if a search such as this exists?

user41796

@ChrisOkyen Google already does that to a degree.

Chris Okyen

4:27 PM

ok lets first make sure we are talking about the same thing before moving on from here @GlenH7

user41796

They run search terms through some sort of software network in order to categorize the terms and generate contextual maps.

Ampt

@ChrisOkyen can you give an example of something that returns the wrong result based on context?

Chris Okyen

"concentration fluoride" I would like the search results having to do with say the affect on concentration due to consumption of fluorinated water.

I DONT want the results to show about the concentration ( or amount ) of fluoride in something

user41796

@ChrisOkyen How would you programmatically determine such a thing?

Jimmy Hoffa

@ChrisOkyen so -amount on your search terms...

Chris Okyen

4:35 PM

Well I would first need to give some indication of were taking about water... "concentration fluoride water" be able to select concentration definition in tearms of focus.

Jimmy Hoffa

otherwise, invent magical perfect super search and invent Okyenoogle and go become a millionaire

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa ~~millionaire~~ Billionaire

Jimmy Hoffa

@ChrisOkyen Semantic Search is a huge complex area, go read about it if you like

@Ampt from my perspective I can't tell the difference

Chris Okyen

So what did you mean "amount on your search terms"

Jimmy Hoffa

@ChrisOkyen -amount

Ampt

4:36 PM

@JimmyHoffa That's because you're not Justin Timberlake

Jimmy Hoffa

+ = require this search term, - = do not show results with this search term

Chris Okyen

yeah

ok thannks

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt I sure hope it stays that way

Ampt

so if I googled "Harry Potter -movie" it would most likely return results about the book

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt or strange fan fic

it's the internet after all

Ampt

4:38 PM

@JimmyHoffa "Harry Potter -movie -fanfic -fan -fic"

user41796

Just turn safe search on and spare your eyes any potential problems.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 at that point you might as well just not be using the internet!

user41796

True. I'm not convinced that's a bad thing though.

user55340

4:54 PM

@Ampt "Harry Potter -movie -fanfic -fan -fic -rule34"

user55340

or +... if you're into that.

user41796

@MichaelT Is there a SFW description of rule34?

user41796

Or should I just leave safesearch enabled?

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 leave safe search enabled.

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 Yes, there is. The definition of rule 34 is SFW. The contents generated because of rule 34...not so much.

user41796

4:58 PM

"Safe Search, the best way to eliminate 98% of the Internet from your search."

user55340

Rule 34 (Internet meme)

Rule 34 — "If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions" — is a prevalent meme that Internet pornography exists for every conceivable topic. == Origin == This memetic Internet "rule" originated from a 2003 webcomic, captioned "Rule #34 There is porn of it. No exceptions.", which was drawn by Peter Morley-Souter to depict his shock at seeing Calvin and Hobbes parody porn. Morley-Souter posted his comic on the United Kingdom website Zoom-Out in 2004, and it has been widely reproduced. == Popularization == Web users have made Rule 34 into a prevalent meme, owing to the ubiquity of Inte...

user55340

Which makes me wonder about...

user55340

►

user55340

(turn down volume... just the last bit... and well... don't hit it while at work... its not bad, but the related videos is... well..)

MetaFight

I'm at work. Will I get fired if I click?

ah

user41796

5:01 PM

@MetaFight When did you rejoin the land of the working? Last I knew you had been searching.

MetaFight

about 3 months ago.

user41796

Wow, I've been out of it.

user41796

Belated congrats?

MetaFight

Thanks :) I don't think I mentioned it much, though.

user41796

Last I remembered you had interviewed with a group where you knew the cultural fit wasn't going to fly.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:02 PM

@ratchetfreak only the free ones..

MetaFight

There were two places like that. Neither worked out :) I ended up finding a job with a really good team. And they're willing to let me work from home 50% of the time, which is great.

user41796

@MetaFight That does sound like a pretty sweet gig

Jimmy Hoffa

@MetaFight woot. How terrible are they that they were desperate enough to let you work from home 50%? Or are they not?

MetaFight

I can't complain. The people are nice, professional, smart, constantly looking to improve themselves and surprisingly relaxed. The domain is neat too.

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Believe it or not, some places are actually pretty decent to work for.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:05 PM

@GlenH7 truth. I've worked at some. I just wish the ratio were better

(as do we all)

@MetaFight Awesome. Sounds like they're one of the ones letting you work from home because they're smart enough to know it doesn't make a difference for most of us

MetaFight

I just finished a 3 month contract with them on site. Yesterday was the first day of my 50/50 arrangement. They offered me this deal a few weeks after I first started. They clearly like me, and I had 3 months to see if I liked them. I lucked out!

Jimmy Hoffa

(well, for those of us with kids it does make a bit of a difference)

user41796

I'm at one now, and truthfully, I couldn't be more grateful. With all of the other things goings on in my life, having excess work stress would really suck.

user41796

@MetaFight Is contract for hire the norm in your neck of the woods?

MetaFight

@GlenH7 To be honest, I don't know. I'm a newb when it comes to contracting, and I'm still a relative newb when it comes to working in software.

user41796

5:09 PM

Fair 'nuff. Was mostly curious with regional differences.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 do you think the frequency of contract to hire vs. full time changes a lot regionally?

I guess higher competition markets may have mo contract to hire... So perhaps that does make sense

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I think it depends upon local labor law. Places where it is more difficult to fire an employee tend to rely on contracts and contract for hire more. Or at least that's been my impression.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 really? interesting.

user41796

Likewise, I have seen places where it is insidiously difficult to term an employee have a preference for contract-for-hire.

user15026

I know for as long as I will be with this company I will be on a series of 3 month contracts

Jimmy Hoffa

5:21 PM

@GlenH7 Contract is very common around here

user41796

@AshleyNunn Is that to escape other employment aspects like benefits?

user15026

Mind you I am not really in tech

user15026

@GlenH7 taxes, benefits, etc etc etc

Jimmy Hoffa

and we're an at will state

user15026

Part of it is also because of how we work as a thing (because we are technically a company contracted to take care of the betting site and I am contracted to the contracted company)

Jimmy Hoffa

5:22 PM

people can be fired in Colorado because they look at you funny

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Hmmm, definitely a counter-point to the evidence I have seen.

enderland

I think a large amount of software dev is contractors

of some sort

user41796

@AshleyNunn So they're just creating legal wrappers around the core to protect the owners.

user15026

@GlenH7 Yes! Precisely this.

user15026

(It is a thing that kinda makes me a grumpasaurus sometimes)

user41796

5:25 PM

@AshleyNunn Those legal shenanigans know no borders.

user15026

@GlenH7 Aye.

user15026

I mostly at this point want a job where they do the tax related stuff because that is the thing that drives me the most crazy.

user41796

@AshleyNunn It can be a lot to keep track of

user15026

The CRA has a calculator and so I put it all in a savings account (tax, EI, and pension plan) and then when I do my taxes I will get a nice reliable accountant to figure it out so I can send my money the right places

user15026

Because I get so lost

user15026

5:28 PM

like technically I can stop paying into CPP/EI at a certain point in the year but I can't even begin to understand that so I keep it as if I haven't paid anything and hten whatever leftover there is then I get to keep it.

user15026

/whine

user41796

@AshleyNunn That's kind of how I deal with my withholdings as well. I prefer to overpay during the year and then receive something back after I get my taxes filed. I hate having to come up with a bit more at filing time.

user15026

@GlenH7 Makes me feel better knowing I am not the only one who does it that way

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 same. I always file an extra chunk of withholding - something small enough I won't notice but big enough that over the year it gives me padding for any mistakes that would otherwise have happened just to make sure I never have to pay (I paid one year, it sucked - never again)

user15026

Between being generally prepared AND having tuition and stuff I can put against my owed taxes I should be okay

Jimmy Hoffa

5:34 PM

if my company weren't doing it for me, ugh I can only imagine - even when I contracted I made sure the business gave me W2 rather than contractor crap

user41796

Not something you want to be caught on the wrong side of

enderland

you mean tax evasion is wrong? wat

user15026

I know it is apparently easier here than in the US but I am still missing the days where my work handed me a paystub and things were done and then at tax time I got my t-4 and that was all i needed

user15026

Now I get an invoice and a check and need to determine so many things myself

user41796

@enderland The IRS does take a particularly dim view of that, yes.

enderland

5:38 PM

Understanding the basic functionality of how taxes work is a painful process, but imo really beneficial to understanding how governmental policies apply to you

too many people just only look at whatever their takehome pay is and don't bother understanding what it means to them

/soapbox

@GlenH7 :)

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Lots of states are now days

user15026

@enderland I am responsible for my own tax stuff and I still don't really super care or know. It is frustrating. I dont mind paying them, I really don't, I just hate the work of having to do it myself

Ampt

@AshleyNunn Now which bracket will I be in at the end of the year....

enderland

@Ampt 25%

Ampt

@enderland 25%?

How can you be sure though

enderland

5:43 PM

because it's incredibly likely

user41796

@Ampt moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

enderland

actually you might be very close to the threshold, forgot you were a student all spring

Ampt

@enderland You would be wrong ;)

user41796

Especially since you haven't been raking in that OT that you wanted. And you'll only have 7/12ths of an annual salary under your belt this year.

enderland

I have no idea what you were making at your internship though, either

user41796

5:46 PM

@Ampt Are you sure about that? Have a look at the link I gave.

enderland

@GlenH7 don't forget the $10k in deduction/exemption

Ampt

@GlenH7 If things continue at the current rate, yes

enderland

if a single person makes more than about $45k total in one year they hit the 25% marginal rate

Ampt

It's going to come down to tax credits/deductions/exemptions

But I think I can squeeze in under the bracket level, yes.

user15026

@GlenH7 I am curious about this for me in Canada

user41796

5:50 PM

@Ampt Take the OT if you can get it. :-)

user41796

Remembering that the bump in tax bracket only apples to the amount above the minimum for that bracket

user41796

@AshleyNunn tax-services.ca/canadian-tax-brackets-2014-income-tax-rates

enderland

@GlenH7 I wish I could imprint this in everyone's brain, so many people think "being in the next tax bracket means I'm screwed!" when it really means you just earned more money lol

user41796

It's ok to be paying more taxes in that case, yes.

Ampt

No, it comes down to how I file. I may technically be a dependent at the end of the year.

Mainly due to the way student loans are doled out through the government

enderland

5:52 PM

that's going to suck

lol

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt aye, seems to be the standard

user15026

@GlenH7 And I am in the lowest one. That is not a surprise!

Ampt

@enderland tax credits man!

user41796

@AshleyNunn No harm in working your way up through the brackets. :-)

enderland

@Ampt not really

user15026

5:55 PM

@GlenH7 That's the plan!

user41796

I pay more in taxes now than what I used to earn when I was (much) younger.

user15026

Hoping the next schoolthing will help.

Ampt

@enderland Not for me, but my parents. Theres a ton of applicable tax credits they can claim if they claim me.

user15026

(a friend who does what I want to do also thinks my plans are good so that is helpful)

enderland

@Ampt yeah but then you most likely will be in the 25% bracket

user41796

5:56 PM

@Ampt You know it's love when they want you for the tax credits.

user41796

@AshleyNunn Hopefully they were able to give you some guidance on the programs you were looking at.

Ampt

@GlenH7 Eh, they took out close to 6 figures of student debt loan for me so.... It's kind of the least I could do.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt no, you could do nothing at all. Heck you could burn down their house. Technically that's doing much less favors for them, and possible - so your analysis of the least you could do is sorely lacking in creativity

Ampt

Granted I'm paying it off but it's in their name and thus affects their credit score, etc.

user15026

@GlenH7 They were, it seems to be universal that the one is better than the other

Jimmy Hoffa

5:58 PM

@Ampt unless you're being a jerk, it's affecting their credit positively

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa I believe you misunderstand the phrase.

user15026

SO I emailed the school and asked them a lot of things and am hoping I will get a reply someday

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa now, yes

enderland

oh that's screwy then

Ampt

but during my years of schooling that's a large chunk of debt

user41796

5:59 PM

@AshleyNunn good to know I can still pull apart Uni adverts. :-)

Ampt

it wasn't hurting them, but the amount of outstanding debt at the interest rates the government charges isn't exactly great to come up on the credit score

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt which plays very little into their credit score so long as it's in good standing I would imagine - but I suppose I can't be sure

Ampt

Amount of debt affects credit score. Having too much or too little in relation to your annual income can change your score

user15026

@GlenH7 You definitely gave me a lot of helpful advice. :) Now to have them email me back.... (I am kinda hoping that my artsie uni credits will work toward their liberal arts stuff so I have to do less)

enderland

@Ampt number of accounts, not quantity (utilization of credit cards does somewhat). your annual income doesn't affect credit score (nor do your assets)

someone making 1M a year with a 10M net worth could have troubles being able to get a car loan for $10k if they don't use credit ever

Jimmy Hoffa

6:01 PM

@Ampt unsecured debt matters significantly there, but student loans aren't unsecured so they play a significantly smaller role - and having secured debt in good standing even if it's above your wages, so long as the monthly is not significant in relation to monthly income it's usually seen as a good sign that you're taking care of your obligations

enderland

which, btw, is one of several reasons why credit score is stupid metric, it only measures past success in paying debt

Ampt

@enderland stupid or not, it's what they use.

user41796

@enderland Their statisticians would argue the contrary with you.

enderland

@GlenH7 your income/assets have no input into a FICO score

user15026

Also, whichever of you (@GlenH7?) who were like "poke people doing the thing" I love you for it and owe you extra cupcakes because I have learned more today about what I want to do and how to do it from the one person I have talked to who is doing the thing than I have by just flailing on my own

user41796

6:10 PM

@AshleyNunn Was one of us, yes. If I weren't lazy, I'd go back in the chat transcript and look. :-)

user41796

@enderland As far as you know, that is. :-P And I can say that since they don't reveal everything that goes into a FICO score.

enderland

@GlenH7 no, I'm using their published components

user15026

@GlenH7 Hey man, there are extra cupcakes on the line ;)

enderland

I should add that this is going to slightly change as the company creating FICO scores is going to add something nebulous to address people with minimal credit history

Credit score in the United States

A credit score in the United States is a number representing the creditworthiness of a person, the likelihood that person will pay his or her debts. Lenders, such as banks and credit card companies, use credit scores to evaluate the potential risk posed by lending money to consumers. Widespread use of credit scores has made credit more widely available and less expensive for many consumers. == Credit scoring models == === FICO score === The FICO score was first introduced in 1989 by FICO, then called Fair, Isaac, and Company. The FICO model is used by the vast majority of banks and cred...

user41796

@AshleyNunn I figure I should be okay since I ought to be getting a new kitchen out of the tour. And a few extra batches will have to be made to make sure the equipment is working as expected.

Jimmy Hoffa

6:13 PM

woot I think I have my hand-spun module implementation done. Mostly ripping the concepts from AMDs but simplifying it to my particular use case, easy peasy dependancy ordering system.

user41796

> Although the exact formulas for calculating credit scores are secret, FICO has disclosed the following components:

enderland

@GlenH7 I know, read through those though - the only one which is even related to income is the 30% - debt burden (but if you look at the related link you will see that is also marginally related)

user15026

@GlenH7 oh yes, one of the stretch goals was a kitchen remodel, wasn't it?

user41796

@AshleyNunn Yep!! And a BBQ tour...

user15026

@GlenH7 Oh yes, I remember that part

user15026

6:20 PM

That part is the delicious part.

user41796

And what would be the point of a cupcake tour without extra delicious parts?

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland they're also making changes to lessen the effect of specifically medical related debts (woot!)

var bootstrapRetryLoop = function(f) {
  return function() {
    if (!module.require('app'))
      setTimeout(f(f), 250);
  }
}

$(document).ready(function () { setTimeout(bootstrapRetryLoop(bootstrapRetryLoop), 250) });

enderland

@JimmyHoffa as well as adding some nebulous thing to address the "your income/assets don't matter" problem for people who rarely use credit

Jimmy Hoffa

^-- because, recursion. And fuck this.

Keen

6:33 PM

Has anyone read the Kindle version of Intro to Algorithms (CLRS)? I'm curious if the formulas and figures display properly.

user41796

@Keen Dunno offhand. Not sure that many here in the chat room are using eReaders for their technical books. @MichaelT uses Safari Books online, but that is potentially a different format than what Kindle uses.

user15026

@GlenH7 It would just be pointless, I am telling you.

user55340

@GlenH7 It is... and I use ePub rather than mobi... so I don't even have a good rendering system for that.

user41796

@AshleyNunn Here's hoping those stretch goals are met

user41796

@MichaelT I haven't found an ereader application that I really like. Of the ones I've tried, they are mostly tolerable.

user55340

6:43 PM

I'm firmly entrenched in iOS / Mac... so its not even a decision for me. iBooks is quite acceptable for all I've needed.

user55340

btw, @enderland hows Slack?

user15026

@GlenH7 yeah, I like my actual reader but anything on the computer that says it does ebooks usually makes me frsutrated

user41796

"tolerable" isn't going to get me to change my preference for printed material anytime soon...

user15026

@GlenH7 An e-reader with e-ink is actually quite good for reading, I love mine, but anything tablet/desktop/phone makes me want to spit rocks

user55340

@GlenH7 accessibility is an issue though. Back in my days of being a dev at Netapp... I had a bookshelf in my cube to try to keep up with the technologies being used... that hasn't gotten better.

ratchet freak

6:51 PM

@AshleyNunn sun comes out of the clouds: queue shouts of "damnit I was just getting to the good part"

user15026

@ratchetfreak laughs Okay, that is a slight downvote for them but I've found that with mine at least it's still pretty okay in sun

enderland

@MichaelT too busy to read it :| ;)

user55340

@enderland there's an irony there...

user55340

It would be intriguing to do a radar chart for each of the strong/weak definitions as a spoke for a given language. Not that it solves the problem but rather sheds more light on it that its not well defined though still allows one to compare two languages. — MichaelT 32 mins ago

user55340

I'm still thinking about that now...

ratchet freak

6:55 PM

busy getting engaged is that what they are calling it these days?

user55340

@enderland have you seen imgur.com/a/L2Rqh ?

user41796

@enderland - being busy can be a good thing.

user55340

Searching for 'how to eat sushi' on google has not exactly safe for work wording in its one boxing.

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