The Whiteboard - 2014-10-20

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12:25 AM

Unlike geometrical things, the topological things (let's say, graphs) don't "display themselves". Additional preparation is required for displaying the graphs. Display geometry needs to be created in order to be able to display the graph. The display geometry, however, is a part of presentation, but not a part of the domain. To make it work, there are NodePresenter and EdgePresenter objects in the view for every Node and Edge in the domain model.

There should already be a pattern for this. Perhaps even a book full of them. Gut feeling.

12:55 AM

Are you trying to inject display logic into the class? Or are you trying to delegate display to a 3rd party class but need to get private information to that class?

1:06 AM

@Ampt I'm trying to avoid putting the display logic into the domain model classes. I want to confine the display logic to the presentation classes. Both view and model are (err... will be) my own classes, as opposed to 3rd party.

1:22 AM

So you've got a domain model, a logic controller, and now you want a view you say? ;)

Model–view–controller

Model–view–controller (MVC) is a software architectural pattern for implementing user interfaces. It divides a given software application into three interconnected parts, so as to separate internal representations of information from the ways that information is presented to or accepted from the user. == Overview == As with other software patterns, MVC expresses the "core of the solution" to a problem while allowing it to be adapted for each system. Particular MVC architectures can vary significantly from the traditional description here. === Components === The central component of MVC...

@Ampt I just picked up the payday 2 sale, should join me one of these evenings

1:35 AM

@JimmyHoffa Most Definitely! At my gfs right now so I'm away from my gaming rig, but I'll be on this week after work

@NickAlexeev It's one of the most implemented patterns in the world though, so fair warning that you're gonna find a lot of crap and a lot of crap aimed at web developers

but from what it sounds like, that's basically what you want

@Ampt I'm somewhat aware about MVC and some of its derivatives. MVC is a relatively high level pattern.

It's also an aggregate pattern: Composite (?), Observer, Strategy.

I have a hunch that there may be other lower level patterns (or perhaps refactorings) that help with MVC. It would be interesting to find what the prior art is.

user55340

2:15 AM

@Ampt You need to get her a gaming rig too... so that ~~you~~ she can play games there.

3:49 AM

@Ampt heh just popped into the safe room/tutorial area, you answer a phone and on the phone screen the number that called is: idKFa122321 <-- idkfa is the classic keys+full ammo cheat from doom

6 hours later…

9:28 AM

lol. In the first program I ever wrote for somebody there was a "secret" command line argument that gave you read/write access (instead of the default read-only). The command line argument was IDDQD

3 hours later…

12:51 PM

The Codeless Code: Case 165: Failsafe

posted on October 19, 2014

When the monk Landhwa was tasked with implementing a new security layer for the Spider Clan’s applications, his longtime enemy—the monk Wangohan—suspected that Landhwa’s doom was finally at hand. For security demanded attention to fine detail, and Landhwa was notoriously impatient and lazy. Sure enough, when several applications were deployed into production with Landhwa’s code, …

1 hour later…

1:56 PM

@gnat what was up with protecting that question about chat-bots?

-3

Q: building a chat bot for an e-commerce site

I was recently talking to a couple of friends who run a modest e-commerce website (Daily visitors: approx. 100,000,). They plan to have an in-site chat module to engage customers. Since the whole operation is run by 3 people at the moment, they probably won't be able to respond to all the queries...

web-development python artificial-intelligence nlp chat

Are you stuck in the grid? Do you need me to send your son in via the mid 80's 3d scanner in the secret basement of your arcade?

user41796

2:43 PM

@Ampt It picked up a spamvertisement. So he protected it to prevent future carp-tastic messages like that.

user41796

Not sure if you can see what's at this link or not: programmers.stackexchange.com/posts/260428/revisions

user41796

And you could help by dropping a close vote on that question

psh, like I haven't already.

user41796

gnat must be out of close votes already then since it's only at 2 CV

-1

Q: How to compare two different hashset objects with more than 100,000 records

I have two classes class A{ int id; String name; public boolean equals(Object o) { if(o instanceof A) { A a=(A)o; if(a.getId().equals(this.getId())) return true; } return false; } public int hashCode() { return id;} /...

Not a terrible question but it's in need of some TLC in the way of naming used algorithms

user41796

2:54 PM

You probably didn't see the 3 deleted answers on that question....

can't see that stuff, no

were they bad?

user41796

2 were just throw something at the wall and see if it sticks. The other was a reasonable attempt, but you could tell that the author didn't (couldn't) understand what the OP was getting at.

I think theres a diamond in the rough there

I'll take a shot at it this afternoon

user41796

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user41796

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2:58 PM

Lol so they've been going at it for a while on that one

user41796

3:17 PM

@Ampt Yeah... Thought you might find the comments of value if you chose to edit that question.

The Star Board needs more starred posts about gnat.

3

happy?

Ask and ye shall receive.

user41796

And to think that I had just unpinned Shog's comment about this not being the bridge....

3:33 PM

well they do have 86.6k stars

we only have 9.5k

user41796

See, this is why I was thinking we were just a nice quiet little corner of chat.SE

I happen to think that our CSS looks nicer than the bridge's as well

user41796

I don't frequent the bridge, so I can't really comment

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user41796

@MichaelT - FYI, I referenced a recent conversation you had with Shog in this MP.SE answer

3:48 PM

and now we wait to copy 13 gigs from DirA -> DirB

It's the little dev box that could

oh shit

out of space

user41796

"Ha ha!" ~Nelson

I know how to make more space!

rm / -rf

user41796

/* IIRC

I'm not sure you need it, since the r flag means recursive

user41796

Pretty sure you still need to provide a pattern match though. / just says where to start. * tells it what to match.

3:56 PM

174

Q: How far will you get with an 'rm -rf /' command?

I've often wondered how far the system will actually get if you run rm -rf /. I doubt the OS would be able to erase itself (?) Bonus Question: After the command has been executed, will rm have removed itself? Update: I've tested this in a couple of the main unix distributions using VirtualBox a...

unix filesystems delete rm

TL;DR: rm / -rf --no-preserve-root for good times.

whois mods

@RobertHarvey youis

user41796

@RobertHarvey been quiet this AM from that point of view. Yannis was active on MP.SE about 10 mins ago

user55340

@Ampt find / -executable | xargs strip is much more fun.

user55340

I know that would 'work'... I think find / -executable -exec strip {}\; might also work, but I'm a bit rusty there.

user55340

4:08 PM

(as to why thats a problem? ...

user55340

/ $ ls -l /mach_kernel
-rwxr-xr-x@ 1 root  wheel  8394200 Aug 17 21:50 /mach_kernel*
/us/lib $ ls -l libstdc++.*
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root  wheel  1448192 Oct 24  2013 libstdc++.6.0.9.dylib*
lrwxr-xr-x  1 root  wheel       21 Oct 24  2013 libstdc++.6.dylib@ -> libstdc++.6.0.9.dylib
lrwxr-xr-x  1 root  wheel       17 Oct 24  2013 libstdc++.dylib@ -> libstdc++.6.dylib

user41796

2 more VTDs and the ksloc question goes away

user55340

While it should go, I'm curious to see what his answers to the comments are.

user55340

Btw:

user55340

123

Proposed Q&A site for professional woodworkers, craftsmen, furniture builders, turners, hobbyists, and anyone experienced in creating objects with wood.

Currently in definition.

user55340

4:15 PM

If you've got votes on questions that are at more than +10, unupvote them and up vote ones that are less than 10.

user55340

> 3 more questions with a score of 10 or more

user55340

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user55340

There are three at 9 right now... or if you haven't voted on it (@MetaFight I'm looking at you), vote on them.

user41796

@MichaelT 1 closer

aaand it's done

user55340

4:22 PM

@Ampt and now you can commit to it!

@MichaelT already done!

user55340

(that means getting in on the private beta, seeding lots of good questions and answers and if you're one of those on the first page of users when it graduates, you would get nice swag!)

awww yeah

got ask/answer 10 questions

but I thiink that's definitely do-able

user20683

@ashleynunn made it to the gate at pearson. Pity we forgot to make cupcakes. I'll just have to come back and make them sometime. Also mobile SE is 40 cakes worth of terrible.

user55340

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user55340

4:25 PM

@WorldEngineer you need to get her some peach lambic ice cream.

@MichaelT No comment? Booooo

user55340

I will also point out that Glen needs to work on his rep.

Not sure that it' updating properly

user41796

@MichaelT been busy....

user55340

@Ampt its rep across the entire SE network and some other funny math with it too.

user41796

4:27 PM

But that said, the (parents of the) soccer team gave me a bottle scotch as an end-of-season thank you.

user41796

One could close the question, bust the bluster and explore a real question, or claim its irrelevant. Me, I am really interested in honest responses to the question and to give context on what an honest answer might look like. — Don Turnblade 3 mins ago

user41796

^^^ Underwhelming.

user55340

@GlenH7 Its a poll and intended to be as such.

user55340

And now has a red background.

user41796

Really ought to be a different shade of red though....

user55340

4:32 PM

Btw, was at Pewit's again last night... think I got some good shots there.

user55340

Talked with another photographer who was from Chicago and drove up to Baraboo just for photographing there.

user55340

(he was a programmer for Blue Cross/Shield)

user55340

Also was on the pumpkin train ride in the dells... my nephew took some photos with the F1 (compact-ish camera). It was interesting to see how deliberate he was with it (rather than how he takes photos with the iPhone).

Pastafarianism has reached the commit phase.

Your premise is invalid. I oppose the proposal because it is specious. I oppose any proposal that's both a parody of some other well-established subject, and simultaneously a giant in-joke; I would oppose a proposal about "flying spaghetti physics" which pokes fun at scientists who study things they cannot see and cannot adequately explain to laymen, for the same reasons. — Robert Harvey 1 min ago

user55340

@RobertHarvey I suspect it won't get enough for commitment... and if it does, won't make it through the beta at all.

4:39 PM

It rubs me a bit the wrong way that it's somehow gotten this far. It assumes a tacit acceptance by SE that this sort of thing is somehow acceptable. If SE is gambling that it will never make it through the commit phase, that's fine, but I wonder if they would look at a site that parodies the LGBT community in quite the same way?

I suspect that such a site would be looked on as bigotry, and closed immediately.

user55340

@RobertHarvey The controversy around it, and people specifically trying to act against it galvanized the core support group to act on it. I suspect that if that original call for people to down vote it never happened, the proposal would have disappeared into 'low activity on a year old proposal' in time.

user41796

It's not clear to me either why the proposal is being allowed

SE has a history of a laissez faire leadership

I've never been much on the "if you ignore it, it'll just go away" approach.

user55340

@RobertHarvey Its how area 51 seems to work... the posts about the 'ridiculous' nature of it both on the proposal and MSE were what drove the attention to it.

4:43 PM

@RobertHarvey Well I just hope you know that you're not the first to argue against them. It's kind of the core of what FSM is. Arguing with people who dislike them.

Something that is totally at odds with the SE model.

user55340

There is some flexibility in the model... the continued existence of Math, World building as a new site, and then there's also RPG and Sci-Fi which seem to also straddle the subjective boundary.

@RobertHarvey I don't think that Pastafarianiasm is purely parody.

user55340

Russell's teapot

Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claims that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, it is nonsensical for him to expect others to believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still referred...

@psr I see where you're going with that, but no. You could do the same thing with any other subject, like the physics example I described, but that still doesn't make it a viable topic.

user55340

4:50 PM

Its viability, will be determined as it moves through the process. I don't believe its a viable one, but I also don't think that SE should try to squash it if people want to propose it for grounds other than ones that are in accordance with the area 51 proposal process.

user55340

Pastafarism is a 'religion/orgnization' that takes the arguments of the teapot and pushes them back on people who often make such claims themselves... so in that respect, I don't see it as a parody.

It's a soapbox. Nobody is a seriously practicing pastafarianist. It's sole purpose is to poke fun at religion.

user55340

(as an aside, apparently you can get a sandhill crane as a symbol on a military grave marker: cem.va.gov/hmm/emblems.asp )

I wonder if anyone would put the FSM on their gravestone.

@RobertHarvey I think it's a religion for atheists. The primary fuel behind it is that, precisely as you said earlier, religion is a protected class, but atheists, no matter how sincere their personal beliefs, have trouble getting them recognized due to not having a religion with a god. So it becomes, "What do we need to do for official recognition? A book? A being? A SE site? If these are the rules we have to play by, then we'll do what we need to do."

user55340

4:54 PM

@RobertHarvey That is likely a legitimate question for the SE site.

user55340

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user55340

I'm fairly sure thats not vulcan.

user55340

(has ties to judaism... that said, I'm also curious how many trek fans asked for that symbol)

user55340

> Instructions for Requesting an Emblem not Available for Inscription Link

To submit a request for an emblem of belief not available for inscription, the requestor must:
Establish that there is an immediate need for a Government headstone/marker to be furnished for a deceased eligible individual (i.e., submission of VA-Form 40-1330, Application for a Government-Furnished Headstone or Marker, verification from National or state cemetery officials).
Certify that the proposed new emblem of belief represents the decedent's religious affiliation or sincerely held religious belief system, or a s…

user55340

The key part there is the 'Certify' bit... as it cut there for the fold:

user55340

4:57 PM

> Certify that the proposed new emblem of belief represents the decedent's religious affiliation or sincerely held religious belief system, or a sincerely held belief system that was functionally equivalent to a religious belief system in the life of the decedent.

user55340

Note the 'sincerely held belief system that was functionally equivalent to a religious belief system'

user55340

On other proposals... @GlenH7 you don't appear to be on this one:

user55340

106

Proposed Q&A site for professionals and students of any discipline of engineering. Includes chemical, civil, mechanical, aerospace, nuclear, industrial, petroleum, power, architectural, biomedical, and others. Also general engineering topics, like ethics and licensure.

Currently in commitment.

user55340

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user41796

@MichaelT That's because I'm a one-trick pony. :-)

user55340

5:04 PM

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user41796

@MichaelT I also have to make sure I don't misrepresent myself when answering questions like that.

user55340

Gah... out of close votes.

5:25 PM

@psr An offshore haven for our tax-free income?

@Ampt Did I forget that? Every good plan needs that.

1 hour later…

6:32 PM

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6:46 PM

I wonder what the qualifications are for Sales & Marketing Managers nowadays.

7:28 PM

Pulse: Check

user55340

Fog a mirror... inconclusive. Not a disqualification.

user55340

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user55340

TF2 players logged in. Can you spot school?

whats with the spikes?

people are more likely to log in at the beginning of an hour?

user55340

@Ampt day/night.

7:34 PM

ah it's more compressed than I thought

user55340

I think its an every 8h average.

user55340

Each major tick is 2 weeks.

user55340

Btw, Lumosity brain training < Portal 2 brain training: toybox.io9.com/…

7:49 PM

Have you ever played Portal 2? I'm not sure I get it, but that's probably because I haven't played 1st person games much.

Portal 1 and 2 are fun

and hilarious

Man it feels like my student loan provider is just making numbers up

Nothing adds up

Principal, interest or payment?

well first, they don't even tell me the interest

just the principal

well. let me start off by saying I have 2 loans there.

I haven't been required to make payments, but I have been

so I paid each of them twice in the last two months, and then they consolidated them for me, at my request

I went in today to set up the payments on the new, consolidated loan, and nothing adds up. First, my payments made seem to have had no effect on the loan. It just says my principal amount, and that my payment went towards interest, with no interest amount listed

then when they consolidated my loans, it "paid them off" and gave me a total paid, part of which went towards interest, and part towards principal

but neither of those two numbers is reflected in the new consolidated loan amount

What were the old principal amounts, just before the bank paid them off?

And the new consolidated amount?

That's too much of a difference. I'd complain. Vociferously.

Sounds like they tacked on a bunch of fees and interim interest.

At the very least, they should be able to explain in detail what they did.

8:07 PM

@Ampt I protect when I see a question attracting delete-worthy answers. Decision on whether to vote close comes independently... and anyway, it wasn't an option in that chat-bot question because my close vote on it expired over a year ago :)

@Ampt That's too much of a difference also. It's not so much the proportion of the adjustments is than there is an overage.

There might have been a prepayment penalty on the old loans.

@RobertHarvey Eh, I don't think I get hit with pre-payment charges. They were very insistent on that in all the exit counseling.

Anyway, they're required to explain these numbers to your satisfaction. If they can't, ask for a refund of every penny above the original principal amounts.

LOL

well you're far more optimistic than I am, but thanks

I'll definitely give them a call

Even declaring bankruptcy can't rid me of these things

Facebook seems to be a formidable consumer weapon. When my wife is dissatisfied with a company, she quietly leaves a reasoned post on the company page complaining about the service. It's amazing how many times that has resulted in a satisfactory response from someone very high up in the organization.

8:12 PM

oh yeah, social media is everything now.

Did you get reasonable disclosures?

what do you mean?

oh I haven't called yet

Was there anything in them that suggested you would be charged 3xxx above the principal amounts?

I'm at work. Just reserved a meeting room for a little later this afternoon to make the call

OK.

8:14 PM

It's just a little frustrating to not see my payments showing any difference in loan amount

No doubt.

and then to wonder whether that impacted my consolidation or not

I have maybe a dozen loans, both subsidized and unsubsidized. But the bank has never asked for more than one consolidated payment.

Your situation sounds like an actual consolidation, where they wrote you a new loan. You didn't need that.

And the banks do have some fiduciary responsibility to not rip you off.

@RobertHarvey Well, I figured it would make my repayment simpler, and they gave me a weighted average

between the loans in my name and my parents I've got like 5 different loans to balance

so being able to get that down to 2 easily seemed advantageous

Yeah, but a consolidation always means more fees for the banks. Check the papers you signed; there should be a fees disclosure.

And based on those numbers you gave me, it seems like the fees they charged you were exhorbitant.

Anyway, there might be a reasonable explanation.

8:18 PM

It may make sense if my payments weren't included

What payments?

> A Direct Consolidation Loan allows you to consolidate (combine) multiple federal education loans into one loan at no cost to you.

@RobertHarvey I made 2 months worth of payments towards the loans

That still doesn't account for the whole difference. Let me know what you find out.

that's what I did, so I shouldn't have been charged any fees at all

Banks. I hated them long before it became fashionable to hate them.

8:19 PM

yeah I will

I opened a savings account at WAMU once, just to have one available. I put $100 in it. Ten months later I had a zero balance and got a letter from them saying they were closing the account. I asked them what happened. "Oh, we charge $10 a month if you don't keep a minimum balance in there."

Dicks.

It's a savings account, ffs.

That's why I work with a credit union now. If I have anything to say about it, I'll never do business with a regular bank again. Ever.

Fee income is hundreds of millions of dollars per year for major banks. I used to write software that generated reports for a couple of hundred banks in the Los Angeles area, so I know first-hand.

And fee income provides very little value to the consumer. Mostly, it impacts low-income people.

Anyway, enough ranting about banks.

Hey, @GlenH7. You're just in time for the bank rant.

user55340

but, @RobertHarvey you never get frustrated... do you?

lol

user41796

@RobertHarvey Just caught up on it; something sounds very odd there

user41796

8:31 PM

And I echo your sentiments wrt credit unions vs. banks

user41796

@Ampt - Something is definitely off on those numbers. I'm assuming you had subsidized loans so your interest was deferred until 6 months post graduation.

Looks like someone on Meta might have finally figured out a solution to the "People don't read" problem.

[Redacted to prevent seizures]

user41796

If they were unsubsidized, then those numbers may make sense, but I'd still want to see a history of the loan in order to understand how they got there.

user41796

@Ampt - looking at the disbursement numbers you mentioned.... That's completely out of whack. Undergrad student loans are supposed to be at 3.4% APR (IIRC) and I don't think that rate could generate interest like that in such a short period of time

Well if someone could tell uncle sam to go to credit unions for my federal loans, that'd be great lol

user41796

8:36 PM

federal loan servicers aren't supposed to gouge you like that. There's 0 risk on the loan since it's backed by the fed.

Stafford loans have a lot of protections. Just make sure they're playing by the rules.

8:47 PM

they are both all stafford

they are really a mix of a bunch of different loans (like 8 or 10 of them)

@Ampt I always write "principal only" all over any extra debt payment (or find where on the web-site they hid that option, etc. ) If you don't specify then many places decide to their own advantage. How are they supposed to know you didn't just want to give them lots of interest money way in advance, just for convenience?

and from what she told me I was right in my calculations

user41796

@psr If memory serves, he should still be in his grace period and therefore no accumulated interest.

@GlenH7 Clearly he wanted to get a head start paying it.

This falls into the "hard to explain something to a man when his livelihood depends on his not understanding you" category.

Ok, well.

so after comparing some numbers we were suspiciously exactly 2000 dollars off from where we should have been

that's when she put me on hold

user41796

8:53 PM

"Isn't that convenient...."

apparently, when I consolidated my loans, the fed decided it would include my 2000 dollar loan from my school into that application, which is where that came from

so I guess that's paid off now too, even though I've recieved nothing from my school about it

hell, I don't even remember taking a loan from them out... but if the fed says so I guess that's that

and that's where the discrepancy came from.

user41796

@Ampt That still seems unusual

0

Q: How to get a good internship

I am a 3rd year student of computer science from Europe. Due to personal reasons my grades dropped from 8.5 average in the first year to low 7 now, and I have had to take a year off this year where I'm only doing a few classes per semester to so I can spend some time to get things sorted in my li...

BURNINATE

user41796

a $2k loan from an atypical source is something that would stick in my mind

@GlenH7 I'm going to be honest. There were a lot of loans I took out to pay for school. It wouldn't surprise me that I took a 2k loan out from my school at some point over the years there

user41796

8:58 PM

That's fair. And if you had to pull from a lot of different sources, I could understand that

The numbers add up, which is mostly what I care about

I wish they were a little lower but such is life I suppose

user41796

All the more reason to pre-pay during your grace period. Cuts down on the overall interest you'll have to pay out.

yeah thats pretty much my thinking at this point

I would have liked to consolidate all of the loans under my name but the feds have dissallowed that as well

Interest on student loans is pretty cheap right now.

Pay off your credit cards first.

Then cut them up.

eh, 8.9% doesn't feel very cheap

and I already have those paid off

user41796

9:05 PM

@Ampt Student loans are tied directly to the person whose name they are issued in. And it's pretty dang hard to get out of them.

user41796

@Ampt How did they get to 8.9?

I'll have to check the interest rate on my loans. It's a variable rate, and I thought it was less than 5% right now.

Original PI was $900 per month; I think I'm paying about $650 right now.

user41796

studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/interest-rates

Right. That would put my undergraduate loans at 3.86%, and my graduate loans at 5.41%

@GlenH7 Parent Plus loans for the loss

user41796

9:10 PM

The ones in your name should be at a lower interest rate, I hope.

user41796

If all of the loans are through the same servicer, you may want to specify which loans are to be paid down first. They're supposed to pay off your worst interest rate loans first but they may have a funky algorithm for how to do that.

The ones in my name are lower

I think mid 5s

user41796

You may want to see if there are things you can do to minimize how much you initially pay on the ones in your name so you can concentrate more funds to the higher rate loans. One extreme would be paying interest only on the low rate loans and pay down extra principal against the higher rate ones.

user55340

10:13 PM

Btw, this site appears to be a good one for financial advice:

user55340

@GlenH7 I'm paying ~2.5x the minimum on all of them across the board. I've favored the higher interest where I could, but at this point I'm happy. Sure I could save a few hundred doing one thing or another

but I'm happy just letting them be for now

@Ampt You're voluntarily not optimizing something? I thought you were an engineer.

@psr I'm voluntarily not ripping the hair out of my head on a monthly basis :)

@Ampt <pauses to complete dip-irrigation based CPU cooling system>

10:25 PM

@psr hahahahaha no no no, that's relaxing

anywhom, let me switch computers. done with work for the day.

@Ampt Of course, as someone reasonably likely to choose, say, managing a herd of virtual Yaks over going through my junk mail I really can't throw stones.

Why put up a website about the book you've written, and then fail to tell people how to buy it?

Other major (and all too common) web site fail: Can't tell what the website is about in the first 60 seconds of looking at it.

@psr Ugh, and then you have too many and they get all over your kingdom, am I right?

Must be talking about Farmville.

(Though I don't remember Yaks)

@RobertHarvey So many software library websites fail to answer "Why does this library exist"?

10:34 PM

Well I'm talking about Gnomoria, but @psr may be talking about something else.

@psr There's that. There's also the site that starts with the words "Achieving high return on investment through global initiatives that seek to maintain collaborative environments that blah blah blah blah..."

I actually made up a game that sounded completely useless, knowing that there were sure to be real games that outdid any idea I could have.

@psr Well.... I actually do enjoy managing a herd of virtual Yaks from time to time so....

@RobertHarvey Good point. At least the sites I mentioned are at least clearly some kind of software library.

@Ampt I'm not saying I wouldn't play it.

It's like Dwarf Fortress with a better GUI

10:37 PM

@Ampt And yaks.

Those too.

user55340

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user55340

Why can't we have an error -2700?

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Oct '1420

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