@Jolenealaska yeah jolene, don't forget that

I don't mean "just another" as a negative thing. Just that preferences are preferences. My brother intensely dislikes chocolate, I still love him. I love heat, I eat jalapenos like popcorn...

It's just the way I roll. I even like spicy-hot chocolate candy and cinnamon red-hots. I don't like pumpkin.

I have a weird thing with ginger....

I can love it or dislike it, without apparent rhyme or reason.

Ah yes, I agree with "preferences are preferences" thing. As the Russian proverbs say, "By taste and color, there are no friends"

This doesn't mean skin color, even though Americans might be inclined to interpret it that way

@rumtscho Not surprising, honestly. I occasionally leave this chat for a while because every time I talk about a vegetarian recipe I get pushback about my diet choices and have to defend them, or "jokes" about how nothing vegetarian can taste good.

Nah, "taste or color" doesn't bring to mind race...more like colors of fruit candy.

Purple, orange or red...

It's very easy for what's supposed to be lighthearted banter to turn mean.

@BESW Really? I hadn't noticed this happening, but I admit that I don't pay much attention to vegetarian topics. If I ever took part in the mindless jokes/mean responses, I apologize.

If it started as lighthearted, it's not likely intended to be mean later.

@Jolenealaska Probably not, but it can hurt a lot even when it wasn't intended to

When every. single. mention. of non-meat meals was met with "jokes" or pressure to justify the choice, it stopped being light-hearted and turned into pressure to make the subject unwelcome.

And any attempt to say "Hey, not cool," was met with "It's just a joke," so I just left.

here?

Yes, here.

@BESW Oh :( I was just going to mention that we cannot always notice when it stops being cool for the other side, but if you explicitly mentioned it instead of bearing with a smile and hoping that it will stop, then that's worse than I thought.

Oh good grief

The joke there wasn't because it was meatless, but because it was a meatless hot dog.

No, it was a joke based on the trope that vegan food sucks

well, to me meatless and pretend meat are different.

If i got in a huff and left every time someone took the piss out of British food based on its stereotypical poor quality, I'd barely be in here.

Yeah, that'd be funnier if it wasn't a pattern, and if I hadn't explicitly said it felt bad.

@ElendilTheTall I get it, and I think BESW gets it, but the problem is that we can't predict when tropes push people's buttons. We can just stop using them when we notice that it is happening.

Cerberus would be my worst enemy. But I A) know it's a joke B) don't give a fuck what Internet strangers say and C) just give it back

I've been quizzed and interrogated about my diet choices here, and only saying "health reasons" get the person to back off. Like anything else wouldn't have been enough.

@rumtscho I don't recall BESW ever saying 'please stop joking about vegan food'

When I try to share something that tastes good but is vegan, I get told I must be wrong because "haha vegan is awful."

Oh please

That's not a generic trope joke, that's telling me I shouldn't share food I like with the chat.

@ElendilTheTall I don't either, but as I said, I haven't paid much attention to vegan discussions here. The point is, he is saying it now, quite clearly.

Specifically in response to your joking about my personal taste, saying it's driving me away from the chat.

Yeah, you said that after the event...

Your response then, as it is now, was "It's just a joke."

Not "Won't happen again" or anything like that. Just--like now--telling me that you making fun of my food is okay.

Well, it is. I don't care what you eat. Why do you care what i think anyway?

Because I'd hoped to find a place where people rejoiced in food rather than teased each other's dietary choices.

So what, because you don't want me to make jokes about vegan food, I'm not allowed to make them anymore?

No.

I'm saying that I find your jokes rude and belittling. I have no control over you, and I expect to have none. If that's what you're taking away from this, it was not my intent.

If you don't want to control your behaviour because it makes someone else feel unwelcome, that's your prerogative unless and until the chat thinks it's worth flagging.

Textured vegetable protein molded into a chicken drumstick strikes me as silly fake-meat and I might crack a joke about it without meaning to be hurtful, but veggie soup, quinoa and rice pilaf with chickpeas or broccoli stir-fry is just food - with or without meat.

I've not flagged any of your "jokes" at my expense because I don't know this chat's culture; my introduction to it tells me that sorting people into worthy and unworthy based on their personal likes and dislikes is a funny thing here.

I assumed it was all in good fun when it was just pop culture stuff.

@Jolenealaska Oh, I totally agree; most fake meat that's trying to be real meat should just stop and be proud of itself on its own merits.

That is what a vegan chili dog is to me, as a hot dog (by definition) is, to me, meat.

@ElendilTheTall Too bad cheddar only comes in one variety: flavourless rubber.

In other words, good morning!

@Jolenealaska You're hot too!

hi @Cerberus

Hi!

@cerberus hi there

How is the balrog population doing these days?

@Cerberus I have been accused of that before!

Still endangered?

@jolenealaska you shock me

@Jolenealaska You started it!

@Cerberus Oh yes, I've started it more than once!

Sadly, there are some chat rooms whose cultures I'm just not able to mesh with. EL&U likes using debate tactics in casual conversation, for example; SF&F really enjoys arguing for its own sake; and lots of rooms are more vulgar than I'm comfortable with in casual conversation (that latter one crops up here occasionally too). These are my boundaries and I don't expect other rooms to change their culture for my tastes.

@BESW I also think that the chat room culture changes depending on which people are currently online and what mood they are currently in

I know I'm lucky to have found a few places with cultures where I feel comfortable, and sometimes I try to stretch out and try new places--or see if old ones have changed (or if I have).

@BESW So what do you mean by debate tactics?

Also, first experiences are indeed very important in building your overall impression, and it seems that yours was particularly unfortunate

Does that mean you're not able to mesh with EL&U?

I know it can sometimes be annoying when the same kind of joke at your expense is made again and again, even though it was intended in a light-hearted way and even though you found it funny the first couple of times.

For example, I have some strong disagreements with Elendil on what constitutes good sci fi and fantasy, having absolutely opposed opinions on some books

@Cerberus Yeah, like @rumtscho says, first impressions are important. My first impression of EL&U was that I was having an interesting chat about intercultural semiotics when suddenly the other primary participant was trying to argue about which fallacies I was committing.

It was a typical--what's the argument tactic where the other person tries to drown you out by making irrelevant invocations of esoterica?

I am not easily bothered by people I don't know well, they can't really get under my skin anyway.

but I also have not had felt being treated badly by him, or judged as a worse human, after these differences became apparent

That thing, whatever it is. They shifted the conversation to a field where they were more comfortable and I was less comfortable so they could "win" what I thought was a nice chat.

I have never been annoyed by Lindy.

I can very well see how your first appearance here, with the LOTR question, can have made the exact opposite impression

But imagine how annoyed he must be with me for repeating that nickname..

@cerberus it doesn't even register. Oh god, you've conditioned me! You swine!

This conversation makes me think of this:

and it would be only logical if you incorporated that impression into your idea of our culture

@ElendilTheTall MUWAHAHAHA.

Although the correct denomination is "cur", I believe.

I am not implying that it is the same situation and that you should "get over it", because I don't feel that strong about my reading preferences, and I don't care enough to become defensive about my favorite books. It seems that your food choices are much more important to you, so making them the butt of a joke really hurts.

Or mutt

That is a nice one.

@rumtscho Honestly, I've noticed for some time that it's mostly just the one person actively making me feel unwelcome by consistently demeaning my tastes and demanding I justify choices, and then dismissing my concerns as insignificant because it's "just a joke." The chat's overall culture is a little more vulgar than I'd strictly like, but that's just a background itch I'd otherwise be willing to overlook for the company.

The occasional joke I will happily laugh at. This did not feel occasional, so I mentioned that it was making me feel uncomfortable.

@BESW It's not fair to assume malice because someone doesn't express himself or herself in in the same way you would, or even in the way you expect.

@Jolenealaska Oh, I get that.

@Cerberus or fleabag - we'll go with all 3, one for each head

That's why I spoke up and said it was making me uncomfortable.

@ElendilTheTall Perhaps unsurprisingly, none of the heads are insulted.

I don't feel like this was either, because "Oh good grief" is about the size of the responses I got.

So, @ElendilTheTall: Whether I was clear or not before, I am now.

@BESW Perhaps a more light-hearted way of handling repeated jokes is just saying "yeah, yeah, I've heard that joke so many times now, I get it!".

I feel like my offering vegetarian recipes on this chat is unwelcome because when I do I can expect them to be made fun of.

Or something.

@Cerberus of course not. If I thought they would be, I wouldn't have said it

Not even mock-insulted?

@Jolenealaska I don't see any malice here either. I think Elendil was convinced that BESW finds the conversation funny, or at worst is bored by what he sees as flopped jokes.

Although my nature is such that I find it very hard to even pretend insult over hygiene...

Three times the butt sniffing!

dogs...

@Jolenealaska funny, why does mythology have a three headed dog but not a three butted dog?

All the fun with 1/3 the pooper scooping?

Hello all. :)

Hi Cindy!

@Cindy hello there

@ElendilTheTall The pizza was great! And yes, I've made Stromboli. Calzones, too.

@ElendilTheTall I don't have the right to demand that you change your behaviour, and I won't. I do think it's silly to insist on behaving the same way to everyone we meet, but that's a philosophical difference and I understand the view that being consistent regardless of circumstance is a virtue.

But whatever confusion there was before, I hope it's cleared up now. I hope you know how I feel about the pattern of behaviour discussed above, and more importantly that your dismissal of my feelings on the matter makes me think you didn't mean it lightheartedly.

@Cindy gosh, was that the last time you were here?

I'm sorry to blow up the chat with this drama, and I'll leave the regulars to their regular thing. At the very least I hope it's useful to know why I'm not around anymore. I have enjoyed our other conversations, y'all.

@ElendilTheTall Yes. Friday or Saturday?

@BESW it absolutely was meant lightheartedly, and I'm sorry if you were offended.

@Cindy must have been Friday

did you go with the mascarpone-based sauce?

Yes. The naughty one.

you devil you

@BESW I would find it sad if you just disappear. Besides, what would have been the point of asking us to be more considerate of your food choices, if you won't be here again to talk to us, about food choices or other stuff?

what toppings did you go with?

I always like mushrooms with a bianco sauce

@ElendilTheTall Thank you. An apology helps a lot; I accept.

@ElendilTheTall Actually it's not really that naughty as it's a very thin base layer. Probably ~2-3 oz of mascarpone for a whole pizza.

@Cindy keep telling yourself that, sister ;)

@rumtscho Since I got an actual straight answer instead of a dismissal this time, I'll be back. You guys are kinda fun and I'd be sad to disappear too. But I'll probably keep a low profile for a while--it's not always easy to be in this chat.

@ElendilTheTall The base had roasted garlic. (So you get the flavor throughout.) Toppings were baby arugula, mushrooms, red onion, thin sliced ham, and a very few pieces of very thinly sliced tomato.

Almost forgot - a light sprinkling of crushed red pepper flakes.

@rumtscho (And the point if it had gone differently? Partly for my own peace of mind, and partly so the chat knew why it lost someone in case that mattered to anyone.)

@Cindy sounds good. I think I would have left the tomato off, but y'know, I'd force it down :D

@ElendilTheTall I never liked the tomato on pizza until a time when we were up north and had a slice of white pizza with the thinly sliced tomato. But again, I don't put much.

i must make a pizza bianco next time. It would make a change from red sauce > pepperoni > garlic oil > enough parmesan to kill a horse

@cindy do you just cook it on a stone in the oven?

Usually. The stone pretty much stays in the oven so that is the easiest. But we do have the mesh type pan that we use on occasion. (Can't remember what it's called.)

a lump of steel is apparently the way to go

i don't have any lumps of steel knocking around the house, however

@rumtscho But what the hey. I had three friends over on Saturday night, making five of us with my dad, so I made a sort of serve-yourself buffet with spicy Indian-curry tofu scramble; leftover mujaddara (Lebanese lentil and rice pilaf with cloves as a primary spice); vegan-style bread rolls; whole wheat pita pockets (store bought, I haven't had the time to figure out home-made yet); and Japanese curry sauce my friends brought over. Served it with that cranteade I talked about earlier.

@BESW I wasn't around "earlier". What is a cranteade?

@Cindy In South Carolina last month I had a pizza with a garlic-and-olive-oil base and curried chicken and veggies on top. Made something similar with chickpeas instead of chicken when I got back.

@ElendilTheTall I don't either. I've thought about using the grill as I've heard that it turns out well, but haven't tried that yet. It might prove to be a good option in hot weather.

Hmm. I have my own "it's complicated" relationship to ginger, but else it sounds tasty.

(My whole "low-cholesterol mostly-vegan" diet thing went straight out the window while I was in SC; it's Lard Country.)

@rumtscho I just put in a relatively small amount, about a teaspoon for the whole pitcher. Gave the drink what one friend calls "texture," and a bit of a warm afterglow, but I couldn't actually taste the ginger itself.

@BESW Sounds interesting. I've never had one like that.

@Cindy yes. if you have a round Weber type, you can get a special insert that fits between the base and lid. It's a cylinder with a door in one side, so you can just whip it open, slide the pizza in, and close it again, to preserve the heat

@Cindy Mostly it was the thing on the menu where I could leave off the red meat, cheese, and tomato sauce (I don't play well with tomatoes most of the time), and still have something left to eat.

actually, I tell a lie, it doesn't have a door

@ElendilTheTall Yes, our charcoal grill is a round Weber. I'll have to check into that.

Way cool!

@ElendilTheTall how hot does that get?

@rumtscho Cranteade is still a work in progress, but it's getting rave reviews from my friends.

> The base stone temperature varied between around 530°F and 650°F

apparently

slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2013/04/…

As usual, all of this talk about food is making me hungry. Off to fix breakfast. Back in a bit! :)

J. Kenji Lopez-Alt sounds like a character from a William Gibson novel

@ElendilTheTall "sounds like" in the sense that his name is like one of a W.G. character, or in the sense that his writing style is like dialogue from a W.G. novel?

@rumtscho the former

One of the best pizzas I have ever had was his pan pizza recipe.

bah, mrs the tall only likes thin crust

I was like a no-knead loaf in a skillet...

I usually prefer thin crust too...

@Jolenealaska crusty, but ultimately hot and tasty?

looks good

(the joke there, by the way, is that you said I when you meant it) :D

Or I just baiting you :)

or that

I have a good pizza stone now, but I haven't yet made a thin crust that quite blows me away just yet.

I look at my oven and I know it can get hotter, because it is self cleaning.

it's just being lazy?

It is lying to me that its top temp is 525F.

I just crank both ovens to max, even if I'm only using one

Whether it's true or not, it is funny.

I only have a single oven, so it's 525 tops, or I do very not safe things playing with the clean cycle and defeating of locking mechanisms.

We were talking about that a bit earlier.

That sounds funny.

@Cerberus haha, yes, good picture

Oh how time flies ... I was surfing the web trying to find a good recipe for halva-cake! Now I have to get an idea on what to make for tonight's dinner

When I instruct people how to use the kettle, I tell them to fill it between "max" and "litre".

meh

@Gigili halva cake is a thing?

IT IS

What does halva mean for you, is it the one which is known as "tahan halva" in Turkey?

For me, that's the standard halva. It's made from sesam paste and sugar. But I have heard that there are many types, each of them being seen as "standard" in different regions. A bit like cheese.

The one we use as a topping is a combination of oil, flour, sugar and rose water

I see, so it's a different one.

@rumtscho We call that "Halva Ardeh"

I have to leave for a meeting in 3 minutes, don't be surprised when I disappear

I've never had the flour+oil+sugar+rose type, maybe I should look around to see if I can get it somewhere

@rumtscho It's OK =)

dreamstime.com/… Is this a totally different thing?

It is

Hmm. Rosewater isn't really common on Guam, and roses will grow but without a cold season they bloom until they kill themselves. So for me, rose flavours and smells have strong religious connotations, because they're most commonly found in association with my faith's holy days, and pilgrimages to the Holy Land.

It's a cake topped with halva

I was about to ask...now I am clear.

Last year I tasted rose-flavoured Turkish delight for the first time. It was... strange.

@BESW that's diplomatic

Yeah, I am offended :D

lemon flavoured turkish delight for the win

I do prefer the citrusy delights.

I had rose flavored Turkish Delight for the first time last year too!

I didn't think the rose ones were bad, just... I dunno, they didn't taste like something I was meant to eat.

@BESW yes. more like an air freshening gel that had somehow got mixed in with the real sweets

Courtesy of an exchange between rumi and me.

It was...different.

as i said before, rose water, in its myriad forms, is an acquired taste

@Gigili does Iranian cooking make use of orange blossom water as well, or is that more Morrocan?

Not as different as the ?Dutch? black licorice fish shaped thing...but unusual to an American anyway.

I've learned since though that America has a Turkish Delight company...It has been on my list to try them.

The stuff I tried, someone brought back from pilgrimage to Israel.

It may have been more in the Persian vein though.

Yes, exactly like that.

Maybe a little lighter on the sugar.

@Jolenealaska i still need to send you a parcel of finest British comestibles

That looks just like what I have had. Another version has different fruits and nuts. I want to try that type too.

@ElendilTheTall It does not, as far as I am aware

@Gigili ok

you have zereshk, that is good enough for me

To my knowledge I've never eaten Turkish Delight. I've heard it referred to, of course, more memorably in "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe".

Saffron, cardamom and rosewater are common Flavourings here

Though I gather Narnian Turkish Delight is probably different from local varieties.

After I get settled in my new place we can do a fun exchange....what is it you can't get there that you like...peanut butter m&ms?

@Gigili I am a simple man. Give me a heaping bowl of fesenjan and some tahdig, maybe some zereshk polo, oh and some flatbread, and some of that smoked aubergine dip (the only way I like aubergine) and I'm happy :D

@ElendilTheTall and zereshk! Just to get your attention

I wasn't sure if it was a real thing, or only Narnian until recently.

@Jolenealaska capitalise that when you type their holy name!

Time to scour England for a man who likes Tolkien and smoked aubergine dip.

OK! :)

@FaheemMitha <grabs go bag, displaces to fall back location off-grid>

Do you like Reese's Pieces too?

lol

@Jolenealaska not particularly - they are much more readily available here anyway

@ElendilTheTall I think @Jolenealaska is trying to find out, in her subtle way, whether you are E.T.

@ElendilTheTall It's not easy to make you happy, simple man :P

Reese's are all over the place. Mars stubbornly refuses to jump on the peanut butter bandwagon

Gotcha!

@Gigili not if you're sat here chatting... <taps foot> ;)

@Jolenealaska one of the major supermarkets here, Tesco, now has an aisle-end dedicated to American stuff. It's just ridiculously pricey. £1.50 for a small bag of PB M&Ms

that's what, $2.50

crazy

One has to wonder how a world where Turkey doesn't exist has a confectionary called Turkish Delight. But I guess Lewis didn't worry about minor issues about that. He also had a Father Christmas in a world where Christ never existed. I guess if you can believe all the things that Lewis believed, it is pretty much straining at a gnat to worry about such things.

when you can get a bag big enough to sustain a platoon of light infantry for a week in the states for $5

I am waay past my bedtime folks, you all have a great rest of your day! EEK!

Eh, Narnia was always more allegory than independent world.

Those Callard and Bowser nougat were super tasty.

@Jolenealaska cya hon

must check my e-mail

Its logic is the logic of the things for which it is an allegory, rather than its logic turning on internal consistency.

@BESW A particularly unconvincing allegory. Meant for small children, possibly.

That's spendy candy! Good night all.

@Jolenealaska EEK?

Apparently it was a big hit with the kiddies. To the extent that lots of them wanted to go there. One wonders how they would have liked living in a place where magic is real.

1.5 pounds for a small bag of peanut butter M&M's - EEK!

@Jolenealaska Hmm. Where is that?

In Tall's Tesco store.

"The Magicians" triology is basically an extended riff on that theme. And indeed it isn't portrayed as much fun there.

@Jolenealaska Oh, the UK. Yes, things are overpriced there.

@ElendilTheTall I am not sure if it's worth jumping into the kitchen

@Gigili well, at least I know you don't love me <sniff>

@FaheemMitha Amen

@ElendilTheTall Yeah, M&Ms are ridiculously expensive here, too

@Gigili we have domestically-made ones - regular, peanut, biscuit that are fine

but Peanut Butter ones are only made in the States

so you pay the import duty, and the importer's cut on top

Ah, that's the reason

Interesting

@FaheemMitha not to mention evil wizards, minotaurs, and heavy handed symbolism

@ElendilTheTall I don't remember any minotaurs. Or evil wizards, for that matter. The White Witch wasn't techically a wizard.

There isn't actually that much magic in Narnia, really. More than in TLOTR, perhaps.

@FaheemMitha granted on the witch

minotaurs I'm fairly sure were in there

@FaheemMitha let's not start the definition of magic debate again :D

that sounds like a Discworld title - 'The Definition of Magic'

exactly the kind my eyes would skip right over on the bookstore shelf

@ElendilTheTall Whatever you say. :-)

What Narnia could use is a squad of Gryffindor students with wands at the ready. That would have shown off the White Witch in a hurry.

@FaheemMitha she would have just frozen them

@ElendilTheTall Not if they got their shot in first.

She's only one person. One has to wonder how she got control over Narnia all by herself. Presumably she had help, but still...

Tilda Swinton is a badass, that's how

@cindy good breakfast?

well, from a full chat room to a more or less empty one

c'est la vie, Elendil old chap, c'est la vie

I shall sit here, lentus in umbra, and wait for someone to show up

@ElendilTheTall Very good! :)

what did you have?

Scrapple and fried eggs.

cool

sounds like a big one

No, just one piece of scrapple and two eggs. No bread or other sides.

I have to be careful about carbs. :(

oh?

I 'have' to be careful about some carbs - bread, mainly

but that's choice, not medically vital

No, unfortunately it is medically vital. Not that controlling them improves things much. Just helps to keep things from going the other way.

bah

that sucks, bread is great

to be fair, since limiting my intake of said product I have lost 33lbs

but I could still go a nice slab of 3-day-fermented rosemary and garlic focaccia

I know! I have now learned to keep it in moderation. I have hypertriglyceridemia. When it was first found, I went for about two weeks severely limiting my carbs and then reverted to only whole grains, etc. After 2 years, my triglyceride number had only dropped 8 points. It went from 792 down to 784.

everything in moderation, including moderation :)

Yes. I just wonder what the number will be this year when I have my annual check-up. I mean I've done everything on my end that I know to do and I really don't want it to get worse. It can be quite serious. In fact, you can die from it, or rather the toll it takes on your body.

Anyway, we play with the cards we are dealt. That's one deck you can't stack.

yes indeed

I'm off again to apply for more jobs. Need to find something as we have hit the wall $-wise. So, I will keep at it until I do. :)

ok, good luck!

Thanks! See you a little later. :)

bye now

@FaheemMitha What happened to Anya is also quite unfortunate. both the failed marriage and the fact that she was the only one who died in the last fight

@Jay Well, BtVS is all about torturing people.

I did think her death at the end was unnecessary and gratuitous.

And there was no marriage. If you mean Zander. They didn't get married.

@Jay would you call yourself a BtVS fan? Just curious.

@FaheemMitha I've seen both angel and buffy all the way through at least 5 times

every two years or so i rewatch the whole series