The Frying Pan

I work at a banquet hall and we use large gas burners there, not electric plates. But that's just a small business. Chain restaurants may do it differently.

Cerberus

Ah I see.

I'm actually not sure what kind of restaurants use those electric plates. Not small restaurants. I don't know about chain restaurants, I never eat at any—unless I don't know they are a chain hehe.

Supposedly medium-sized, good restaurants use plates. Sometimes. I don't know.

@NicoleRae What kind of stove will your new house have?

Jefromi

@Cerberus Gas has more than those disadvantages. It wastes more heat out the sides, so you have to be more careful grabbing pots, and it heats up the kitchen more.

Cerberus

@Jefromi Right, that is true.

Nicole Rae

@Cerberus Don't know. We are still looking. Our lease is up in a couple months.

Cerberus

@Jefromi But in practice those are less significant, I would say. Depends on your house, perhaps.

Jefromi

12:24 AM

I suppose I'd care about the last part less if I weren't from places like California and Texas - hot kitchens in the summer are awful.

I avoid using the oven in the summer.

Cerberus

@NicoleRae OK if I were rich, I'd consider induction. Otherwise, I'd go for gas.

Jefromi

So an extra hot stove... not super exciting.

Cerberus

I thought y'all had A/C everywhere?

Jolenealaska

It definitely heats up the kitchen more. It also doesn't get super-hot, which is sometimes (rarely) desirable.

Cerberus

Our climate is cool. Only a few hot weeks in summer.

Jefromi

12:25 AM

Yeah, I was getting to that - it also just takes longer to boil a pot of water, unless you have a super turbo gas stove.

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Huh, what? Gas?

Jolenealaska

Electric gets hotter

Cerberus

@Jefromi Huh?

But gas is super fast!

Nicole Rae

@Cerberus Definitely not rich. :p So hopefully we can have a gas one next.

Jefromi

@Cerberus It's responsive - the power changes as soon as you tell it to.

Cerberus

12:26 AM

@NicoleRae Haha OK.

Jefromi

But the max heat output (the part that actually goes into the pot, not the waste heat) is often not as high.

Jolenealaska

you can boil a big pot of water faster with electric.

Cerberus

@Jefromi And also hot enough to make metal glow red...

@Jolenealaska Oh that's odd, that goes counter to my intuition...but then I've never used electric much.

But then surely the difference in speed will be minimal?

Jefromi

@Cerberus Electric does that too. Anecdotally, basically every gas stove I've boiled water on was noticeably slower than the electric stoves I've had in my apartments, and those aren't high-end stoves.

Jolenealaska

Electric on high (that's assuming a coil stove) gets significantly hotter than gas on high.

Jefromi

12:28 AM

I've seen plenty of people saying this on the internet too.

Cerberus

@Jefromi Hmm it also depends on the kind of gas and the pressure and the size of the burner.

Jolenealaska

My parents have a very high end gas stove (not commercial). I have a $300 electric. Mine gets way hotter.

Cerberus

Jefromi

@Cerberus Like I said, if you have a really fancy one, it can compete (though it'll be throwing that much more heat into your kitchen). But generally if you get a gas stove and an electric stove in a similar cheap-ish price range, like you tend to in apartments, the electric will be way way way hotter at max.

Jolenealaska

That would be sweet!

Cerberus

12:29 AM

Apparently, some electric stoves have a special super-hot burner like the above, on gas.

@Jefromi But...a large burner is not necessarily expensive. It's just larger.

Jefromi

But... you can't just take a given stove and make the burner bigger. I'm talking about the big burner on a typical gas stove.

@Cerberus I suspect that's more about responsive heat, for sauteeing and such, not about boiling water quickly.

Cerberus

@Jefromi I'm not sure what you mean.

Jolenealaska

I'd trade my electric for gas in a heartbeat, but I'd miss my electric when when doing blackened stuff or making spaghetti.

Cerberus

@Jefromi It is indeed not meant for boiling water, mainly because it would be unnecessary and inefficient. But it does get super hot.

Jefromi

@Cerberus So do the other burneres. It just gets hot fast.

Cerberus

12:33 AM

This is quite common here.

Jefromi

Let me try one more time. If you get a typical gas stove, and a typical electric stove, in similar price ranges, and use the largest burner on both of them to boil the same amount of water, I can basically guarantee you that the electric stove will do it faster.

I know it has a big burner. It's still slower.

Cerberus

I don't know what's typical.

Jefromi

You can't turn it up past the max, you can't make the burner bigger than it already is.

Jolenealaska

I'll show you in just a sec.

Cerberus

The burner has two rings of gas flames.

Jefromi

12:34 AM

Yup, I know.

That fixes the problem where the heat is horribly uneven (one of the other sometimes issues with gas stoves).

Cerberus

And it depends also on the gas and probably the pressure.

@Jefromi It also increases the output of energy.

Jefromi

Okay, I know there are variables. What I'm saying is, with the stove that you will actually have in practice, the gas heat output is lower than the electric heat output.

You're not going to be standing around in your kitchen and say, oh, this gas stove would have the same heat output as my electric stove if only the energy density of the natural gas were higher, and my gas line had higher pressure, and the burner were bigger.

Your gas stove is just going to not boil water as fast.

Cerberus

It is possible, but I question how you could be so certain. And, again, what is practice?

We may have different gas here from what you have.

Jefromi

I'm so certain because it's been true on every single gas and electric stove I've ever used, and it's consistent with everything I've seen anyone ever say on the internet.

Cerberus

I am saying this because in my experience, in practice, gas seems to boil water faster, but I'm not 100 % sure.

Hmm it seems Canadian gas has more methane and less nitrogen than Dutch gas.

So Canadian gas would appear to have a higher density of energy.

Jolenealaska

12:41 AM

I can feel the heat from this burner all the way across the kitchen (10 feet maybe?). I just brought 1/2 liter of water to a full boil in 55 seconds.

Cerberus

Ohh never seen anything like that!

Wow.

I guess your electric stoves are very different from ours.

Jolenealaska

That's just a cheap, normal, electric stove.

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska But did you start with a cold spiral?

@Jolenealaska Such things do not exist here.

Jolenealaska

No, I put the 1/2 liter of water on the hot coil. I can do it again from cold on another burner if you'd like.

Cerberus

Yay!

That would be interesting.

Jolenealaska

12:50 AM

I'll do it now, piece of cake.

Cerberus

And I will test how long it takes on my gas stove.

Nicole Rae

Science!

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska Do you put the lid on?

Jolenealaska

yes

Cerberus

On the pan I mean.

OK.

Jolenealaska

12:52 AM

we're looking for a full, rolling boil.

start with water at or near room temp.

2 minutes, 45 seconds.

Cerberus

2 minutes, 52 seconds.

Maybe a few seconds less, because I had to lift the lid many times in order to see it.

Jolenealaska

LOL, I turned off the burner but didn't remove the pot. It boiled over :) That wouldn't happen with gas!

Cerberus

Heh I'm sure it wouldn't.

My water wasn't room temperature, however.

Tap water.

Which is like, I don't know, 12 degrees?

@Jolenealaska So I think this is a tie, what do you say?

And my stove was € 50.

Jefromi

Perhaps gas stoves have gotten better. The waste heat is still pretty bad though - if I remember correctly, electric stoves put maybe 10% more of the energy into the pots than gas?

Jolenealaska

Pretty close if starting from cold.

Jefromi

12:59 AM

@Cerberus Do you mean the same thing by stove that we do?

Cerberus

Yeah.

@Jefromi What are the options?

Jefromi

Well, I'm talking about 4 burners on top of an oven, not something you get for €50 I assume...

Jolenealaska

But, lets do 3 liters of water in a stockpot. Electric will kick gas's ass.

Cerberus

@Jefromi Yes, such things are €50 second hand.

Like this.

Jefromi

Yeah, exactly - I'm not boiling half a liter of water.

No, like literally, it is a single appliance

Cerberus

1:02 AM

But anyway, your electric stove looks vastly different from what we have here.

Jefromi

Jolenealaska

It is very typical for here

Cerberus

@Jefromi Yes, sure, many people have those, but the gas burners are similar.

@Jolenealaska So perhaps you are used to stronger electric burners for some reason? I don't know.

Jefromi

Anyway, yeah, gas gets an advantage for small quantities - the period where the electric stove is slowly heating up is a larger fraction of the total time.

Jolenealaska

Sure, electric like mine is the only type I've ever used.

Cerberus

1:03 AM

But I could be using a larger burner if I really wanted to boil water 2 minutes faster.

Jefromi

So the fact that they're similar times for small quantities means the electric is actually cooking hotter by the end.

Cerberus

Yes. In this comparison.

Jefromi

@Cerberus This is what I was trying to say about you not meaning the same thing - there's no way I'm going to swap out a burner. I'd have to go buy a new stove.

Cerberus

We have an old electric stove in the cottage. It is soooo much slower than gas in all respects. You probably don't have that type.

@Jefromi What I mean is that many stoves, with or without oven, come with one of those huge burners here. They're still not expensive. I just don't have it.

So it all depends on what's "typical" in your country. It's hard to generalise.

Jefromi

Okay. I've used huge double-ring burners at other people's places before, though, and they still seem to be pretty slow... I didn't time carefully, but I have pretty solid timing instincts in the kitchen (I'll start something boiling then come back to check on it at about the right time).

I looked at a handful of stoves on sears, though, and if you take into account the efficiencies, the gas do seem to be getting to be comparable to the electric

Cerberus

1:07 AM

Still, if I had a double-ring burner, I'd have beaten Jo-jo easily.

@Jefromi Comparable in what statistic?

With a double ring, Jo-jo may still beat me at 3 litres, but I think we would be close?

Jefromi

Like there'll be a gas range with (ugh, it's all in btu) 4-5KW, and an electric with 3-4KW, on their biggest burners.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

But the gas will lose more heat.

Jefromi

And then you knock the gas down for putting half of that into your face, and they're probably similar.

Cerberus

To the environment.

Jefromi

It's probably not half, but oof, it sure feels like it sometimes

Cerberus

1:09 AM

Depends also on the size and material of your pan, I think.

A small pan will lose more heat on a big gas burner.

And a thin pan will probably be more efficient considering that part of the flame and very hot air will heat the sides of the pan.

I do wonder about the electricity cost of those big electric burners.

I think we pay 200 % more for electricity than you people, but probably about the same for gas?

One kWh is about 22 cents here, including all taxes.

One m³ is about 60 cents, I think, all included.

Jolenealaska

At that you're comparing apples to oranges. A gas stove with double rings that gets that hot is inaccessible to the average home cook.

My stove is just average.

Cerberus

A gas stove with double rings that gets a lot hotter than my stove is not expensive and very much accessible here.

Jolenealaska

I don't believe that you can get a gas stove that gets nearly as hot as my electric without shelling out huge money.

Cerberus

€ 100.

This will be a lot hotter than my largest burner.

As to whether it will get hotter than your burner, I don't know.

(This one is a second-hand Bosch.)

Jolenealaska

That looks similar to the stovetop at my parent's home (except fewer burners). Their oven/stove probably cost $2500.

Cerberus

1:17 AM

They come in all price ranges...

But you can get a double ring that functions normally for cheap.

Jolenealaska

I'd love to do the 3liter test with proper thermometers and such. I firmly believe that my, very typical, electric burner would win against any non-commercial gas burner.

Jefromi

@Jolenealaska Yeah, for a reasonable definition of non-commercial, anyway.

Jolenealaska

Assuming a price of less than $1500.

Jefromi

@Cerberus So, y'all can get apparently get stovetops for pretty cheap, and it's harder (or at least really unusual) for us to get them without the ovens. But we are still talking about things with big ol' double-ring burners.

Cerberus

@Jolenealaska It is possible. Perhaps I should shell out the € 100 and buy that double ring...

Jefromi

1:22 AM

The weird thing is that they're still often cheaper for the energy, because natural gas is so cheap...

Jolenealaska

I'm game whenever! :) I've got everything I need!

Cerberus

@Jefromi Are you sure you can't get them for cheap in your country?

Jefromi

(even though you're wasting more of that energy)

What I know is that if you go to a store that sells stoves and ovens, you're really just not going to see them.

Cerberus

@Jefromi Yes.

@Jefromi But many people have second-hand stoves here.

Jefromi

I'm sure you can get them, I just don't really know anyone who's bought separate stove/oven here.

Cerberus

1:23 AM

Okay.

Jefromi

Well, okay, take that back - my grandmother did, her kitchen was already laid out like that from 50-60 years ago, and she replaced it.

I may also be biased toward apartments, where definitely they want them to come together so they'll all fit in and be easy to replace and such.

Cerberus

marktplaats.nl/a/witgoed-en-apparatuur/fornuizen/…

€ 180 for a complete furnace, oven + double-ring burner.

@Jefromi I am also talking about apartments...

Jefromi

meh gas ovens...

I think the main place where I have seen separate cooktops is high-end stuff, marketed more toward people who want to lay out their kitchen just the right way, have the oven up closer to eye level, not under the stove.

Cerberus

marktplaats.nl/a/witgoed-en-apparatuur/fornuizen/…

Jefromi

Sears does have them too: sears.com/appliances-cooktops/b-1202533084

Cerberus

1:25 AM

€ 300 for a furnace with an electric oven and a double-ring burner, brand new.

Jefromi

But if you go poke in there, there's tons of cooktops that are more expensive than the all-in-one stoves that they sell.

So back to my high-end thing.

Cerberus

Then buy what I just linked to for € 300.

Jefromi

I mean, sure, here's something fairly nice:

sears.com/…

Cerberus

All I'm saying is that double rings are cheap and readily available in any configuration you like.

Jefromi

plus shipping to the US

Cerberus

1:28 AM

?

Jefromi

also: it lists power for the burners!

The big one is 3.25 kW.

unfortunately I don't know what my cheapo apartment stove burners are

Cerberus

Electric?

Jefromi

Yes, I have electric.

But here, this $400 electric stove (that's about €300 right?) has a 2500W burner: sears.com/kenmore-30inch-freestanding-electric-range-white/…

So probably again comparable.

BESW

Growing up we had one of these which we'd set up on the electric cooktop after typhoons put the power out for days/weeks.

Jefromi

So it sounds like you may have somewhat better gas cooktops than typical here.

Cerberus

1:33 AM

marktplaats.nl/a/witgoed-en-apparatuur/fornuizen/… Electric furnace (Bosch, new) for € 550, 2.4 kW highest burner.

@Jefromi And worse electric.

Jefromi

Yeah.

I'm guessing actually the cheap gas ones may have even worse waste heat, just due to not laying out the burners super carefully.

Cerberus

I don't know...

Jefromi

Because if you don't have large rings and careful control, in order to get pans to heat semi-evenly, you just have to kinda throw out the heat

Cerberus

I have never noticed much of a difference between different gas burners.

Jefromi

sears.com/kenmore-30inch-freestanding-gas-range-w-broil-amp/…

Sure looks like it's going to release a lot of heat to me...

not very recessed

Cerberus

1:35 AM

I'm sure it will.

@BESW Hmm so you normally preferred electric?

BESW

I wouldn't say "prefer" is the right word. There's no gas lines to homes on Guam, so anyone who cooks with gas needs to rely on regular deliveries by truck.

Which is quite viable in certain areas, but I grew up one stick shy of the boonies.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

That makes sense.

BESW

Heck, we didn't have a sewer line until I was in my 20s.

Cerberus

Neither did my parents until a few years ago.

Jolenealaska

One stick shy of the boonies! :) Lol, I like that! (but I bet I can beat it with my 1 room cabin in Chickaloon stories)

BESW

1:46 AM

Yeah, we weren't totally out of civilisation--only about seven minutes past the southernmost traffic light on the island--but it led to some rather odd caught-in-the-middle things.

We had running water, but the pipe was hooked up to the main at the top, so every time the water pressure dropped a little we sucked or blew air; the meter would spin madly, sometimes increasing our "water" consumption and sometimes decreasing it. The utility didn't believe us until we brought in video evidence.

Jolenealaska

When a customer was really rude, I'd send him to the nearest McDonald's. Hang a left, you can see it from the first light. hehehe

You're going to be hungry!

We had frequent power outages caused by a certain pair of beavers. The owner of the land they lived on had a special permit from the state to shoot them on sight. As far as I know, they're still alive and kicking.

BESW

Heheh.

We had power outages caused by snakes crawling across the transformers.

But that wasn't a local thing, it was usually at the power plant itself, and could cause the whole island to black out.

Jolenealaska

There are no snakes in Alaska except pets.

But I'd bet there are no Polar bears in Guam!

BESW

Brown tree snake

The brown tree snake (Boiga irregularis) is an arboreal rear-fanged colubrid snake native to eastern and northern coastal Australia, eastern Indonesia (Sulawesi to Papua), Papua New Guinea, and a large number of islands in northwestern Melanesia. This snake is infamous for being an invasive species responsible for devastating the majority of the native bird population in Guam. Diet The brown tree snake preys upon birds, lizards, bats, rats, and small rodents in its native range. Due to the availability of prey and lack of predators in introduced habitats such as Guam, they have been kno...

@Jolenealaska Nope! None at all.

The most deadly non-human creature on land is probably a pack of wild boars. Once you're in the ocean all bets are off, though.

Jolenealaska

2:05 AM

Alaska has a motto (one of many): Off the bus, onto the food chain!

BESW

Heheh.

One of my friends lived in Swaziland and Alaska before moving to Guam.

So I've heard stories.

Jolenealaska

You haven't lived until you confront a really pissed-off (I think they're born that way) wolverine on the way to the outhouse. "Holy CRAP! Where is the cat?"

BESW

My friend tells of her husband coming home hours late from work because a black mamba was sunning itself on the only path home. So he sat on a rock and waited for it to be done.

Jolenealaska

mamba? Is that a bear?

I took the calling in late for work call, "Moose won't let me into the car".

BESW

@Jolenealaska One of the world's deadliest and more aggressive snakes.

Jolenealaska

2:19 AM

Ah. Yes. I'd wait too. He's got the right-of-way.

always

BESW

Always.

But yeah, Guam's wildlife can be exciting, but rarely lethal.

(Again, until you get into the water. Sharks, jellyfish, tigerfish and stonefish...)

Even the occasional cone snail, which is what really scares me.

Jolenealaska

Gotta go!

ElendilTheTall

8:17 AM

Morning all

Longest of all days, Thursday neither here nor there, When will Friday come?

Jolenealaska

Hi Tall

I must sleep soon, but not before you ooh and aah over my brioche.

or not...sleep is coming fast. Goodnight!

ElendilTheTall

8:39 AM

@Jolenealaska damn, sorry. I will drool all over your brioche when you wake up. As it were.

Jolenealaska

9:18 AM

I got up 'cause my monitor was still awake...weird. Anyway, I'm making it go nighty-night now. Good night again. (look up for drool worthy brioche pics) :)

ElendilTheTall

9:35 AM

@Jolenealaska that looks good, nice open crumb

I was expecting a brioche a tete though!

SAJ14SAJ

11:19 AM

@ElendilTheTall The ghost of the headless brioche will haunt you forever!

ElendilTheTall

@SAJ14SAJ I'll have to wear a hot cross bun around my neck for the rest of my days

SAJ14SAJ

@ElendilTheTall Its sticky situtation.

ElendilTheTall

... I'm out of puns

How goes ze var?

SAJ14SAJ

11:34 AM

@ElendilTheTall Like every day, I don't want to go to work, but to work I shall go.

ElendilTheTall

@SAJ14SAJ that was almost another haiku

SAJ14SAJ

Unintentional haiku dont really prosper now sentiment is real

ElendilTheTall

1:54 PM

well

it's quiet in here today

SAJ14SAJ

@ElendilTheTall I cannot remember the exact rules any more. Haiku really only makes sense in Japanese, since they have a language which is fundamentally built on syllables.

ElendilTheTall

2:20 PM

@SAJ14SAJ 5, 7, 5

SAJ14SAJ

@ElendilTheTall I thought that is what I did, I might have miscounted. It was early in the morning.

ElendilTheTall

'but to work I shall go' is 6

If you'd just lost the 'shall'...

SAJ14SAJ

3 hours ago, by SAJ14SAJ

Unintentional haiku dont really prosper now sentiment is real

I meant that.

ElendilTheTall

@SAJ14SAJ 'now sentiment is real' is 6 as well

SAJ14SAJ

Now is part of the middle line

Darn, I did miscount. Now was just to make up a missing syllable.

Well, the form is silly in English anyway.

There one was a strombolist from Brighton; his dough did truly frighten!

ElendilTheTall

2:42 PM

There once was a baker from Hull, whose stromboli were often quite dull. His wife said 'Enough!', and went off in a huff, and the baker was very put out and wondered why he bothered getting married in the fucking first place.

SAJ14SAJ

@ElendilTheTall He is a bitter, bitter baker.

ElendilTheTall

Haiku are easier to come up with than limericks

Limericks require a knowledge of adjectives and geography

SAJ14SAJ

Limericks don't have to have a place name, I don't think. Or maybe they do. Who cares?

ElendilTheTall

They generally take the form of someone being from somewhere though

SAJ14SAJ

There once was an html mark up artist whose code was so bad it wouldn't startest.

ElendilTheTall

2:45 PM

true, true

There once was a fellow named SAJ...

SAJ14SAJ

Who was so fantastic and wonderful in every way.

ElendilTheTall

huh, I read SAJ as 'Sadge'

SAJ14SAJ

I don't generally think of any pronunceation, but "sage" is probably best.

ElendilTheTall

3:09 PM

@SAJ14SAJ ha! you'd like that

derobert

3:58 PM

@SAJ14SAJ BTW, I haven't done a side-by-side, but I think braises are normally better when you hold them in the oven at a very low simmer, or slightly below even... Maybe 180–185. Better than when you bring them to 200–205 or so.

(Or sous vide for much longer at much lower temperatures, but that produces a very different result.)

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