I don't know that I want to go reading comments right now :)

Unfortunately I think problems in this category are not just about the extremes like you mention; it's very easy for people to have blind spots in at least some areas even if they're ostensibly connected, and those people vote plenty.

I tend to think of blind spots like that as something to be aware of and try to compensate for, not as an opportunity to live based on my existing experience.

The police encounter really drives that home - yes, he's totally right that there are tons of occasions like that where the police really help people. But there are also far less positive stories out there. And depending on who you are, you may have experienced (or heard of) more things in the former category or the latter.

Yay for the legalisation of drugs!

@Jefromi That's a hard thing to pull off. Police are an excellent example, however. It's easy to "hate cops" until you need one.

Yup, and it's also easy to love cops until you get screwed over.

The reality is of course not either absolute.

Have either of you ever experienced misbehaviour by the police?

First hand, I mean.

I don't know if "misbehavior" is the right term, but sort of.

Not first-hand. And I certainly am not suggesting anything about frequency or the officers themselves, just about the existence of stories that aren't in the "they made people safer" category.

It was after my friend was murdered.

I've seen things that looked dodgy, without having been involved enough to know all the facts, though, don't know if that's first-hand.

I had called the police to tell them that I had information.

That sounds serious...

@Jefromi Dodgy, so what did you see?

About 2 days later they came to interview me. For much of the interview they "good cop, bad copped" me ridiculously. They treated me like a solid suspect for at least half the time we spoke. So, not really misbehavior, but ugly nevertheless.

If you'd rather keep that private, of course I understand.

@Jolenealaska Oh, huh, that's weird.

Had they any reason to suspect you?

The murderer used my splitting maul (axe) as the murder weapon.

Hmm.

There are some famous videos out there from law professors etc saying basically, don't talk to the police even if you're innocent.

Of course, I'm the one who brought it up.

As your friend had just died, one might expect them to be nicer towards you.

They had no reason otherwise to know that the axe was mine.

Other than that you had called them to tell them so?

(that's obviously a pretty extreme attitude but there is a point there - to the point that if you incorrectly exercise your right not to incriminate yourself, they can use it as evidence against you)

I had called to say that I had info. During the interview I asked, "Was there in any way an axe involved?"

They shared a significant look at that and turned on the "good cop, bad cop" routine.

@Jefromi I think I saw one of those videos once.

(this is an interview with the guy who made the really viral one, with the video embedded)

@Jolenealaska That sounds...stupid.

it was

I mean, some killers behave in weird ways and needlessly provide incriminating details.

But I'm sure most wouldn't.

It sounds... clumsy, I guess? Because, sounding like you know something pretty important sounds like you could've been involved, so they are probably justified in treating you as a suspect (of at least collaboration, if not the actual act).

Justified in terms of their jobs, not in terms of the correct conclusion in a just world.

Yeah. I bristled at them but nothing else. When they asked for DNA, I just gave it to them.

oof, I'm glad there wasn't somehow misleading other evidence that made them look at you harder after that :(

The case was pretty cut and dried. He had her body in the car when he was pulled over after a long chase for drunk driving.

At the trial the defense didn't call a single witness.

@Cerberus criminals who are dumb enough to do things like that probably do sometimes also provide incriminating details...

@Jolenealaska You'd need some very good external evidence to exonerate such a suspect!

@Jefromi Mm it's possible, but it seems less likely than the alternative.

I know I've heard stories of people giving up crazy things in interviews, not sure I can remember one off the top of my head.

At one point before the trial he fired his lawyer and announced he was going to defend himself:)

I don't know that it's the norm, but if it works 10% of the time, it's still worth it to give it a go from their point of view, yeah?

@Jefromi The central park 5.

@Jolenealaska the 5 were all false confessions, though. Do you mean the guy with matching DNA who later confessed?

(but yes, I totally agree that interrogations can easily lead to false confessions, which is certainly an argument against sufficiently aggressive/manipulative interrogation)

I meant that the 5 gave up crazy things in the interview. Nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

I see.

But the key point there is that they all confessed to the actual crime (which they didn't commit).

Well, I guess they all confessed to being accomplices to it?

I think all interrogations are recorded here.

@Jolenealaska Always a smart move.

I have no idea what happens here but I'm willing to bet it varies wildly between states and even police departments.

heh

from my experiences, if I'm doing anything other than being a witness, I'd do the minimum legally required stuff

Yeah, and there are definitely people in the US who have that view, based on their experiences (or those of people they know).

Oh, and do you have the right to have your lawyer present during the interrogation?

Or a state lawyer.

In the US? Yes.

And theoretically the Miranda warnings let people know that in time to ask for it, but...

It is the same here.

(for the non-US folks, that's the "you have the right to remain silent" thing that's in every single US police drama you might've seen)

also I think there's a caveat, where you can interview someone without the warning, and use that to investigate but not as evidence in trial

It can't be an actual interrogation, in the sense of questions likely to incriminate, but if say someone's a witness, and they let something slip that leads the police to actual evidence, then that evidence is still admissible

I forget exactly where all the lines are drawn :)

I think here they just call it an "interview"

I don't think we have a miranda warning equivilent though

It's "only" 50 years old in the US, too.

science update: saltwater catholyte solution isn't a good substitute for lye in pretzel making :( It does work better than baking soda though!

lol

odd. I'd assume they are both sodium hydroxide.

@SourDoh what is it? Something food-safe at least, I guess!

Is it just that it's NaOH plus salt?

@Jefromi might contain trace amounts of chlorine... ;p

Speaking of 1980s false confession cases:

martytankleff.org/the-story

@Jefromi We use it as a "green" cleaner at work. There's a tank of salt water that passes through a charged filter (I think?) and we end up with anolyte and catholyte. Anolyte has a 200ppm concentration of chlorine, so it's a great sanitizer. The catholyte has a pH of 11, so it's good for degreasing and floor cleaning.

@SourDoh doesn't sound that green to me

the chlorine is quite an irritant when the fumes are inhaled

and it is probably energy-hungry

although one could argue that transporting bottles of cleaning liquid across long distances is much worse energy-wise

it still sounds like a very interesting solution. I just wonder how it compares to more traditional cleaning methods.

@rumtscho Well, it is mostly clear. The chlorine ends up being the same strength as when bleach is used as a sanitize (which is an industry standard). This is supposed to be more easily biodegradable, and does seem to lose potency faster than bleach. I'm not sure about energy consumption, but I know the machine only has to run for about an hour to provide all the sanitizer we need for a day.

8 Months!!!

Woo!

:D He's going to be so excited when I finally let him have the cupcake.

Better image of the cupcakes:

Chocolate cupcakes with salty peanut butter frosting. Some of them have a peanut butter cup baked inside.

Mines 11 months

Hi there!

Whats up i understand you would like to undersrand further

I'm just now looking at it

Are you OK with Joe's edit of your answer?

At any rate, it seems fine now.

Yes thats fine. I added a thing or two i noticed it looks diffrent but the same. Thanks joe!! Hi Jefromi!! Thanks for your honesty. Yes im venting. Im about to quit i hope they get major fines. Thanks for the advice ill tone it down

Could you at least tell us what hotel it's at so I can never stay there?

@user57430 hallo!

If you're quitting anyway I guess that saves you from worrying too much about retaliation for calling the health department on them...

A hotel near ridgedale mall in minnetonka minnesota