The Frying Pan

2:40 AM

@FaheemMitha Cordelia. she's a badass bitch and shes knows and owns it. Even more so in Angel when she really developed as a person

Faheem Mitha

6:05 AM

@Jay Oh

I liked Anya, personally.

Cordelia never did much for me.

<SPOILER ALERT> And the later plot developments in Angel when she was possessed and so forth were just... unfortunate.

It's a shame, really. But Joss Whedon is well known for liking horrible things to happen to nice people. As though there isn't enough of that in the real world. But maybe he thinks it is art or something.

ElendilTheTall

7:03 AM

@FaheemMitha that's not very secular of them.

ElendilTheTall

8:05 AM

I saw Jurassic World last night. Not a patch on the original, but as a dinosaur based action romp, pretty good.

I could watch Bryce Dallas Howard read the phone book

And Chris Pratt is the perfect next Indiana Jones

ElendilTheTall

8:26 AM

Oh, and Happy Treason Day, @Jolenealaska

Faheem Mitha

1:42 PM

@ElendilTheTall That's not very secular of whom?

I notice box office records seem to be constantly broken these days. I suppose part of it is inflation, and partly the increasing size of the international market. And the films that do the best internationally seem to be the worst kind of HW garbage.

Cerberus

4:12 PM

@FaheemMitha I think that is a pleonasm.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus I'm not thrilled when people use words I don't know. Google time.

Did you simply mean that HW == garbage? Or did you actually mean I was using too many words?

Cerberus

That's the same thing.

A pleonasm is when you use one word to modify another while the meaning of the former is already included in the latter.

> white snow

> a huge vastness.

> a numerical PIN

Faheem Mitha

Well, HW isn't literally equal to garbage.

If you told people you were a HW man, they would be quite puzzled.

If you were a garbage man, I mean.

Cerberus

Literality is not very relevant.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus Well, snow in other colors is possible in theory.

I think I need to go and have a cooking discussion in the ELL channel to balance things out.

Cerberus

4:18 PM

It always is.

Hehe.

You should!

@FaheemMitha Linguistic devices are nothing like mathematics.

Context is key.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus huh?

@Cerberus What always is?

Cerberus

4:32 PM

@FaheemMitha Your approach to white snow is like that of a formal logician or a mathematician.

@FaheemMitha Other interpretations are always possible in language.

Faheem Mitha

@Cerberus I have two math degrees. So, I guess there is no hope for me.

Faheem Mitha

5:25 PM

Does anyone here have remote telekinetic powers? I'm trying to remove a back cover from a phone. It won't come off. It's not the world's best phone, admittedly. But none of the amazon.in reviews talk about not being able to get the back off.

Faheem Mitha

5:40 PM

Got it off, but shredded my nails. Fun.

Tom W

6:10 PM

Is there anything I can do with melon seeds?

As food, I mean

Faheem Mitha

6:53 PM

@TomW Depends on the melon. You can open watermelon seeds, at least. The inside is edible.

Tom W

7:05 PM

This one apparently is a 'canary' melon.

Faheem Mitha

7:15 PM

@TomW Hmm, no idea. Can you crack it open? Better check the net first. Might be toxic.

Tom W

I've eaten a quarter of it

Leaving the seeds

Cool. Apparently you can roast them like pumpkin seeds thekitchn.com/…

My hunch is that whether or not they're palatable depends on the maturity of the fruit. As you say, seeds tend to have a hard coat. A fruit that's chemically ripened wouldn't have mature seeds so they might be edible whole

Faheem Mitha

8:02 PM

Well, it is possible (I think) for edible fruits to have toxic seeds, though I have no examples on hand. Might be a suitable question for biology, actually?

Hmm, doing a quick net search shows that apple seeds are mildly toxic to humans, for example.

Tom W

Cyanide, I think?

We can't digest them, so I think the point is usually moot

Faheem Mitha

For example - ehow.com/facts_5616856_fruit-seeds-poisonous_.html

Yes, cyanide is a bit of a theme with fruit seeds, it seems.

@TomW Why can't we digest them?

ElendilTheTall

@TomW that's a honeydew

Tom W

The usual hard coat, the point of fruits is usually to be eaten and pass the seeds unharmed...er..out the other end

ElendilTheTall

@FaheemMitha the indian government

Tom W

8:07 PM

@ElendilTheTall I thought that too but google said no

ElendilTheTall

google lies

Tom W

Honeydew (melon)

Honeydew also known as honeymelon is a cultivar group of the muskmelon, Cucumis melo Inodorus group, which includes crenshaw, casaba, Persian, winter, and other mixed melons. == Characteristics == A honeydew has a round to slightly oval shape, typically 15–22 cm (5.9–8.7 in) long. It generally ranges in weight from 1.8 to 3.6 kg (4.0 to 7.9 lb). The flesh is usually pale green in color, while the smooth peel ranges from greenish to yellow. Like most fruit, honeydew has seeds. Honeydew's thick, JUICY flesh is often eaten for dessert, and is commonly found in supermarkets across the world. This fruit...

YOU LIE

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall Oh, them. Yes, the BJP is a nationalist and mildly fundamentalist Hindu party. Not nice people. Then again, when are politicians, ever.

@TomW Good point. Maybe the assumption in these articles is that you chew the things. Though my recollection of fruit seeds is that they are usually unbearably bitter.

Tom W

Curious that they all seem to produce cyanide

Faheem Mitha

@TomW Indeed. There must be some reason for that.

Though the article doesn't say. Perhaps to discourage predators from eating them? But why all cyanide?

That would probably be a sufficiently sophisticated question for biology, actually.

Tom W

8:13 PM

Essential mechanism of the biology of plants I'm guessing

Mammals produce nitric oxide for certain functions, as another example. And nitric oxide is toxic to almost everything IIRC

Faheem Mitha

Apparently kidney beans are quite dangerous. I did not know that. If you don't cook them properly they can kill you.

@TomW I see. nitric oxide for what functions?

ElendilTheTall

Chocolate is lethal if you eat 8kg of it

Tom W

I buy them tinned. I think any tinned produce here has to be immediately heat and eat because that's the expectation, although I dimly remember having to soak dry beans. Not that I ever buy those

@ElendilTheTall Challenge Accepted.

ElendilTheTall

It's why you shouldn't give chocolate to dogs, they have a much lower threshold for theobromine

Tom W

@FaheemMitha well I remember that white blood cells use it to attack bacteria. I think it also has a function in cardiac regulation, but that's something I've dug out of memory that might not be right

ElendilTheTall

8:24 PM

ah, database migrations are a beautiful thing

migrate, bam, tables created

Faheem Mitha

@TomW I see.

@ElendilTheTall Ah, finally we know something about what you do. Bam.

ElendilTheTall

8:39 PM

@FaheemMitha think again bud

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall Yes, I know about dogs and chocolate.

ElendilTheTall

web development is my hobby

so at most you know what I don't do

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall dammit. and strange hobby.

ElendilTheTall

is it?

no stranger than swatting little balls around or whatever

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall Lethal to humans?

@ElendilTheTall I tried doing web stuff. Couldn't stand it.

I didn't mean programming is strange per se, just that I cannot stand the web side of it.

Though I believe it's fairly profitable work.

Django. Yuck.

@TomW I forgot it you told me, but what is your background?

Scientifically speaking.

ElendilTheTall

8:42 PM

@FaheemMitha yup

@FaheemMitha yeah, Django is weird

Tom W

@FaheemMitha Physics degree, decided to go into IT instead

Specifically, development

Faheem Mitha

What is the lethal component? I read somewhere that chocolate has trace amounts of nicotine.

@TomW So you're a programmer. What kind of work?

Physics is hard to get a job in.

Hmm.

"yosmine was not found in any of the samples but both caffeine and nicotine were present in every chocolate tested. This was particularly surprising for nicotine given the doubts about its presence at all. Its concentration ranged from 0.00023-0.00159 mg/kg with a mean value of 0.000645 mg/kg. There was a weak correlation between the amount of cocoa in the chocolate and the level of nicotine."

That's pretty small.

From separationsnow.com/details/ezine/1440186f7de/…

Tom W

@FaheemMitha integration, Microsoft platform mainly. I write C# and some T-SQL and also know BizTalk

ElendilTheTall

@FaheemMitha theobromine

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall Oh, the same as for dogs.

@TomW MS. Yuck. No offense.

ElendilTheTall

8:52 PM

yup... we just have a higher tolerance for it

Faheem Mitha

It's just a reflex.

@ElendilTheTall Yes, I see. So, it is generally a toxin.

Tom W

I've tried to get into other platforms. I've found it universally just too painful to bother

ElendilTheTall

@TomW every time someone mentions The Seattle Company, faheem shoots a dog

Tom W

Nobody else's documentation is any good

I have never once had an experience where visiting an OSS product's homepage and following the instructions worked, ever

ElendilTheTall

perhaps you've been using the wrong OSS product :)

Faheem Mitha

9:00 PM

"These beverages are very popular: in North America, 90% of adults consume caffeine daily." Yikes. 90%?

@TomW just too painful?

@ElendilTheTall No, I like dogs. But I think harsh thoughts.

@TomW Ok, that's plain weird.

Seriously 90% of adults in North America drink coffee daily?

The last time I drank coffee was when I was 17. I drank some coffee, and couldn't get to sleep, because my brain was buzzing. So I decided - no more.

The idea of stimulants has never been appealing to me.

Tom W

I have 2/day

Faheem Mitha

Gosh, I think I may be channelling @Jolenealaska. Who is not here, apparently.

ElendilTheTall

I have about 6 a day

Faheem Mitha

@TomW 2 what?

@ElendilTheTall 6 what?

ElendilTheTall

coffees, you muppet

Faheem Mitha

9:04 PM

@ElendilTheTall coffee is not a unit of measurement, you kermit.

Tom W

Choose a measurement and I'll denominate in that, then

Faheem Mitha

I don't drink tea either. Never had the taste for it. I like chilled fruit juice, though.

@TomW Dunno. You choose.

Tom W

Well I choose to denote it in coffees

Faheem Mitha

ml of coffee? But that doesn't give the strength.

@TomW That's a notably imprecise measure.

Tom W

Choose a better one

I use an Aeropress with one full scoop/cup, if that helps

Faheem Mitha

9:06 PM

@TomW Better.

@TomW I don't know. I don't drink coffee, remember?

Aeropress is a coffee maker?

Tom W

Yup. The best one I've found

Faheem Mitha

@TomW Wander over to the U&L chatroom, and we'll try to convert you.

Before you know it you'll be writing shell scripts and making snide remarks about Ubuntu.

@TomW ok

ElendilTheTall

@FaheemMitha alright, 6 cups of coffee

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall Still no.

ElendilTheTall

yes

Faheem Mitha

9:09 PM

The cups of coffee might be hobbit-sized, or Smaug-sized.

Tom W

@FaheemMitha I detest Linux, mainly through trying to learn to use it. Although I think more accurately is, I detest everyone who writes anything that runs on it because everything they write about it is wrong

Faheem Mitha

@TomW Er, what?

"everything they write about it is wrong"? Care to elaborate?

Tom W

i) Discover any *nix utility
ii) google name of utility
iii) find homepage
iv) follow homepage's instructions to install and use
v) ERROR

ElendilTheTall

@FaheemMitha and you are so naive as to be completely unaware of the approximate size range of drinks receptacles matching the description 'cup'?

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall I guess I am. I don't really drink things that much. Water, usually.

ElendilTheTall

9:11 PM

@TomW "missing dependency blah blah blah"

Tom W

@ElendilTheTall exactly.

Faheem Mitha

@TomW There are these things called package management systems.

Tom W

If you're lucky

Faheem Mitha

Learn them, love them, use them.

ElendilTheTall

^ what he said

composer is a lifesaver

Tom W

9:12 PM

@FaheemMitha and that is usually how I get hold of such a utility. The problem with package managers is that any of your dependencies' authors can break anything at any time

Faheem Mitha

@ElendilTheTall what who said?

Tom W

Which they do, constantly

Faheem Mitha

@TomW Not really, no.

What distributions did you try?

ElendilTheTall

@FaheemMitha you, look at the arrow. are you tired or something?!

Tom W

CentOS, Ubuntu, Red Hat

Faheem Mitha

9:13 PM

@ElendilTheTall Oh. I guess I should go to sleep.

:-(

Tom W

SuSE I think

Faheem Mitha

@TomW Hmm. Strange. BTW, Red Hat isn't a distribution. Do you mean RHEL?

Ubuntu is a Debian derivative. They have dismal quality control. But there should not be significant breakage in normal use.

And this isn't something one commonly hears. Though I don't hang out with Windows users.

Tom W

That's ONE of my complaints

In general most of them orient around poor documentation

Basically my workflow is install thing > do what docs say > error

Faheem Mitha

@TomW The documentation often isn't stellar, that is true. Hackers hate writing documentation. Though the GNU project is a partial exception.

But mostly we get by.

Tom W

I often don't hang around long enough to find out what caused the error. I'm more inclined to assume that someone shouldn't tell me to do something that doesn't work

And that's what brings me back to MS, because by and large what their docs say is correct

Faheem Mitha

9:18 PM

@TomW If you get an error, you should report it as a bug. Then the author(s) can fix it. The world becomes a better place. We all rejoice.

It would be helpful if you could produce an example.

I'm constantly reporting bugs. Often it is not fun. But it's part of the price one pays to be part of the community.

Tom W

Why would I want to be part of the community?

Faheem Mitha

@TomW Communities are good. They're part of what separate us from animals. Or some animals, anyway. C.f. SE.

Tom W

StackOverflow seems quite happy to help people who make no contribution whatsoever

Less so, over time. But still, lazy questions still get answered

Faheem Mitha

@TomW Up to a point, yes. But I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Tom W

OK, my overriding point is that in general tools in the Linux-ecosystem are harder to use for people without prior experience of them than tools published by commercial vendors like Microsoft, and the reason for that is that commercial vendors take more care over user experience than open-source utilities do

And I don't see any compelling reason, other than money (which is my employer's and not mine) to choose to give myself more work to use something non-commercial

ElendilTheTall

9:33 PM

I can understand that

Tom W

And for sure Visual Studio for example has infuriating and sometimes crippling bugs. Usually the solution is shut it down and/or delete all its temporary files

Faheem Mitha

@TomW There are a number of reasons. Which are often mentioned.

Tom W

Any other than money?

Faheem Mitha

I don't know about "compelling".

@TomW Sure.

Tom W

@FaheemMitha name any of them? Obviously being general, but specific examples are fine

Faheem Mitha

9:40 PM

@TomW A gentleman called Richard Stallman talks about some of this stuff. But Ok.

(a) If you have a problem with the software, you can look at the source to figure out what is going on. And if you can't figure it out, maybe someone else can.

(b) If the original creator of the software goes away, someone else can pick it up.

(c) Free software is generally more flexible and can more easily be used in combination. piping is a classic Unix realisation of that.

(d) educational - related to (a). If you want to understand how something works, you can look at this implementation. This is particularly important in a scientific context.

(e) You get to be part of a community, rather than a faceless consumer.

You can often (usually?) talk to the creators of the software you use.

And help to improve it if you want to.

Tom W

MS has had problems with all these in the past. It's taken most of them to heart, to a greater or lesser degree. They're all based on the presumption that paid software vendors don't care about any of these things, which is manifestly untrue

Faheem Mitha

@TomW I wouldn't say they don't care about any of those things.

But free software is just better suited in these regards. And it is always possible to write better documentation.

(f) Free software projects can share/reuse code (provided their licenses are compatible) without asking anyone.

Of course, that is part of what is means to be a community.

(g) You can port the software yourself to a different platform/os/distribution. You don't need to wait for the vendor to do it for you.

Tom W

(a) MS has already, or is working towards, open-sourcing everything that developers use (and honestly, that's what I care about)
(b) They aren't going anywhere. That's a problem created by FOSS because if you have no commercial arrangement, abandonware is trivially easy
(c) That's a design goal and a valuable one, but it has limits. There are a subset of utilities whose i/o can reasonably be represented as a stream and there isn't a lot of new development in that area. It's an argument from thirty years ago

Faheem Mitha

@TomW going to sleep now. Maybe we'll pick this up later. Or not.

Cerberus

10:44 PM

@FaheemMitha Haha, poor you!

Such a handicap...

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