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rfusca
rfusca
7:02 PM
software lead (on this project) dev for developing a transist schedule system for the nations 3rd largest railroad
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
nice
a lot of responsibility
beta test the hell out of it!
 
rfusca
rfusca
ya
what we're doing won't effect the actual schedule of cars, but will effect the perception of whether of the cars are following the schedule that they should
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
so it essentially changes the entire schedule to match the time a train arrives at the destination? :D
 
rfusca
rfusca
no, they send a car out willy nilly and we figure out what schedule they decided to use and if its following it, if it will be late, etc and keep their customers informed as to whether the railroad is going to cause an issue and if they're within their contracted limits. You'd think they could just tell us "hey, we're using schedule X"...but NOoooOOOOooo that'd be too easy
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
sorry, I just fell asleep halfway through reading that... :D
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:11 PM
lol thanks
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
It's trains dude
 
rfusca
rfusca
lol
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
Oh, I don't :)
 
rfusca
rfusca
freight trains though, not commuter
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
oh well
that's an entirely different matter
:/
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:13 PM
ya, waaaay more boring
what do you do?
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
now this is the third time I've said this while you've been present
I'm a shark dentist
 
rfusca
rfusca
i'm pretty sure I would have remembered that
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
I'm joking of course
 
rfusca
rfusca
thats a shame, your cool meter was definitely rising
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
My business card reads thusly:
Seeker of the Peace, Part-time Chandelier Cleaner, a Legend in his own Time, Oppressor of Champions, Soldier of Fortune, World Traveller, Bon Vivant, Defender of Reason, All-round Good Guy, Casual Hero, Philosopher. Equations Solved, Revolutions Quelled, Banquets Organised, Governments Run, Test Rockets Flown, Bears Wrestled, Photos Taken.
 
D. Lambert
D. Lambert
7:16 PM
sorry, I just fell asleep halfway through reading that... :D
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
@DLambert you should get that looked at. could be narcolepsy
 
rfusca
rfusca
@ElendilTheTall sounds like a fancy description for 'janitor'
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
how many janitors do you know that wrestle bears?
 
D. Lambert
D. Lambert
Yeah, could be right.
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
oh, you do live in Arkansas...
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:17 PM
@ElendilTheTall ya, bear wrestling is part of the job
gotta keep em out of the garbage
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
where they not only wrestle bears, but date their sisters
 
rfusca
rfusca
ya, its less of a family 'tree' and more of the family 'flagpole'
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
anyway
 
rfusca
rfusca
lol
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
I do tech support and some e-commerce development
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:19 PM
oh right, i knew it was something way less cool
;)
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
yeah
 
rfusca
rfusca
you should look into janitorial work
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
I couldn't afford the college fees
 
rfusca
rfusca
gov't grants ;)
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
pfff, there aren't any
maybe in magical happy land
but not here in the real world
we get free healthcare instead
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:20 PM
@ElendilTheTall i've been there, overrated. 4 dollars for a soda, no good rollercoasters :D
@ElendilTheTall ya, they're trying to push 'free' healthcare here
anybody who thinks its 'free' or better is a moron
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
it is better than none for those without insurance...
HELLO by the way
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel if you don't have insurance, you probably don't have a job...so why should I have to pay for your insurance with the money from my job?
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
@rfusca because you're a human being?
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
because life is about helping those less fortunate than yourself
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
and you might be unlucky enough to lose your job some day
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:22 PM
you're confusing less fortunate and lazy
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
not necessarily
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
not everyone who doesn't work is lazy
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
in the current climate there are many less jobs
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
people are being laid off left right and centre at the moment
 
rfusca
rfusca
i have been without health insurance and its scary, but i sure as hell didn't expect somebody to buy it for me
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
7:23 PM
wouldn't it be nice if someone had done though?
there are lazy ones, sure, but there are those genuinely less fortunate
 
rfusca
rfusca
nice sure, but its not like i'd thank them if they were forced to
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
and you shouldn't punish the less fortunate for the lazy ones
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
my father has had 2 heart implants at a cost of £25,000 each
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
no, but you wouldn't say no if your arm was hanging off would you
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
would've been impossible without the NHS
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:25 PM
my dad has had millions of dollars worth of medical expenses...transplants, cancer, etc...but he has a job and health insurance
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
I so don't understand the American way of thinking behind "I made my money, screw everyone else"
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel would I say, ' no, please don't help me' , of course not. but I'd not expect a free handout either
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
i am not saying you should have to expect one
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
so what you're saying is you'd rather pay money to a massive corporation that will do its best not to pay the money back than pay it to a national healthcare service?
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
the nhs isn't ideal by any means but i would rather have it there than not
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:27 PM
@ElendilTheTall i'd rather pay money to a massive health care corp than to the govt that I think will screw me over, yes
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
i have private health insurance btw
you think massive health care corps aren't screwing you over?
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
why would the govt screw you over?
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
all govts screw everyone over most of the time lol in one way or another
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel its in their best interest to keep me as a customer. With the govt, there's no accountability.
@ElendilTheTall its practically their job ;)
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
that's a very cynical view
 
jrista
jrista
7:28 PM
@rfusca heh, couldn't have put it any better myself
@ElendilTheTall Its a view based on experience
 
rfusca
rfusca
@ElendilTheTall its a pretty realistic view over here
the govt is WAAAAY out of touch with what the people want
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
there is deinfitely no accountability in a provate health care corp
they can charge what they like
they will get you on drugs you don't need
 
rfusca
rfusca
you can pretty much promise that if a public poll says one thing, they'll do the other
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
so what, you'd think they'd take the money and stick it in the defence budget or something?
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
hence the huge prescription drug addiction issues there are currently
 
jrista
jrista
7:29 PM
@JamWheel thats only because they have the backing of state governments. INSURANCE COMPANIES BARELY COMPETE!
when you only have one or two insurance companies in a state
and you are forced by law to have health care
of course they can charge what they want
the solution to that problem is not to back up the insurance companies with MORE government
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
As far as I can see it is distinctly immoral to deny someone medical care just because they can't pay for it
 
jrista
jrista
the solution is to tear down the support the government has given to insurance companies
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
same here
 
jrista
jrista
FORCE THEM to compete across state lines, country wide, and the people WILL have a voice
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
medical care shouldn't be about making money, it should be about helping people
 
jrista
jrista
7:30 PM
the people WILL have the ability to choose how much money they spend on insurance
because when everyone is competing nation wide, the only real leverage they have with their customers is price
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
and those that can't - just shoot them in the face and pile them up in the corner...
 
jrista
jrista
do that, and you have zero need for the government to be involved at all
 
rfusca
rfusca
so Joe hasn't had a job in two years because he can live on welfare, but he wants to go hunting and has an accident and blows his foot off...and its immoral for me to not to want to pay for it?
 
jrista
jrista
@ElendilTheTall thats naive
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
they probably deserve it after all, because they don't have health insurance
 
jrista
jrista
7:31 PM
health care costs money
improving health care requires R&D
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
sure it does
 
jrista
jrista
which costs even more money
R&D requires the investment of time, people, and countless other resources, much of which come from industry not directly related to health care
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
@rfusca to put it frankly, yes
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
ok - so what about the soldier who fights for your country - comes back and suffers mental problems which stop him holding down a job, he gets in an accident and you shouldn't pay for his medical care?
 
jrista
jrista
you can't give everyone involved in the process of developing and refining health care incentive if they can't make any profit
its the nature of the free market
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
7:33 PM
@rfusca yes it is immoral btw
 
jrista
jrista
the fundamental problem is we don't HAVE a free market in the health care industry
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel not to me
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
@jrista R&D companies get paid out of the healthcare budget
 
jrista
jrista
@JamWheel not to me either...wtf?
@ElendilTheTall which comes from where?
people paying for health care
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
what about my example with the soldier then?
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
7:33 PM
national insurance
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
would he not get health care either?
 
jrista
jrista
heh
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
i.e. tax
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel People suffering from illness due to protecting my freedom...whole different story to me
 
jrista
jrista
thats not right
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
7:34 PM
right
so because of joe blowing off his foot, the soldier suffers
 
jrista
jrista
I should not have to pay for other peoples health care, nor should I have to pay for health care advances if I don't need health care.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
because you have thrown them in the same bucket of people without insurance
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
@jrista bingo - that's immoral
 
jrista
jrista
There are a LOT of people who are perfectly healthy because they live a healthy lifestyle, who only have catastrophic care.
 
rfusca
rfusca
no, joe doesn't get health insurance but vets do (it was already like that, there's Vet insurance over here, prior to all this)
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
7:35 PM
'I don't want healthcare advances, until I need them'
 
jrista
jrista
no
thats not it at all
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
how do you know you don't have cancer right now?
 
jrista
jrista
health care advances, and reductions in health care costs, can occur naturally
without any government regulation at all
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
or some long term illness that's undiagnosed?
 
jrista
jrista
I get regular checkups
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
7:36 PM
will your catastrophic care cover it?
 
jrista
jrista
simple fact of the matter is
if I just paid for my yearly checkups directly, out of picket
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
basically what you're saying is you walk past a person dyeing in the street and ask if they have insurance... they say no, so you walk on...
just from a comfortable distance
 
jrista
jrista
I'd spend less overall. A couple hundred for a doc visit. A few hundred for some x-rays and maybe a cat scan.
A few hundred for a thourough blood test.
I might spend $1500-$1800 a year.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
and if you need an op worth 8 grand?
 
jrista
jrista
I spend more than that just paying for health care insurance every month.
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:37 PM
@ElendilTheTall its a calculated risk that the individual should be able to decide. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. If you do, and you don't have insurance and you found out that you have some terrible existing, it'll be a preexisting condition and not covered if you try to get insurance
 
jrista
jrista
@JamWheel eh, 8 grand isn't that bad...even if I have to pay it, it can be paid on a plan. I would rather have a $10k deductible catastrophic plan.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
ok <insert significant to you number here>
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
@rfusca You shouldn't have to gamble with your health
 
jrista
jrista
So that when the shit REALLY hit the fan, and the number went to millions, I don't get ruined.
 
rfusca
rfusca
@ElendilTheTall you should be able to, if you want to
 
jrista
jrista
7:38 PM
@ElendilTheTall Its HIS CHOICE!
It only becomes a public issue when the public has to pay for him!!
If rfusca pays for himself, the how he chooses to deal with his health is HIS personal issue.
All this crap about nationalizing everything...THAT is immoral.
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
is it fuck
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
LOL
 
jrista
jrista
It puts everyones private issues into the public hands, when the public has no right to any say in peoples personal issues.
 
rfusca
rfusca
agreed
 
jrista
jrista
stay the hell out of my personal life, let me live how I CHOOSE to live.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
7:40 PM
immoral is leaving people to die, regardless of their circumstances
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel if they're too lazy to care about their own life, why should I?
 
jrista
jrista
If I choose a life that results in my dying morbidly obese riddled with heart disease, that is my own PERSONAL consequence of my own PERSONAL decisions.
That is NOT a public issue....NOT ONE BIT
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
why is laziness the only possible reason for someone not affording health insurance?
 
jrista
jrista
hehy
 
rfusca
rfusca
frankly, because over here, its a big issue
 
jrista
jrista
7:41 PM
not affording health insurance is because health insurance is a non-competitive enterprise
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
but it isn't the only issue
 
jrista
jrista
health care cost is a problem because there is no natural competition.
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel so i'm supposed to cover everybody in order to get the 10% that arent lazy
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
I should point out that there are calls at the moment for certain people to pay for care, like drunks who turn up at hospital on a friday night
 
jrista
jrista
its a government-reinforced monopoly, so OF COURSE the cost is astronomic!
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
7:42 PM
88.8% of statistics are made up on the spot you know ;)
 
jrista
jrista
if government got their grimy hands off of peoples personal lives, and let the health care INSURANCE industry regulate itself
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
hahaha
 
jrista
jrista
the people, you, me, rfusca, the poor person living in the projects down the street, whoever
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
whenever an industry is left to regulate itself, only one thing happens, corruption
 
rfusca
rfusca
@jrista agreed, if there was more of a health care "brand", it'd be better
 
jrista
jrista
7:43 PM
the people, you, me, rfusca, the poor person living in the projects down the street, whoever
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel not with appropriate levels of competition, collusion is against their best interests and they compete and the consumer wins
 
jrista
jrista
would be driving prices...cost would not be astronomically high, because the hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of health insurance companies in this country would have to compete with each other...and their only real leverage with their customer is price
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
You know what would be better? You all pay $50 a month out of your paycheck and then you don't need to worry about it
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
yes, but left to their own devices they can monopolise and the big companies win... big...
 
jrista
jrista
it would not be unaffordable for a poorer person to get health insurance
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:44 PM
lol, 50$ wouldn't even scratch it
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
you can go into hospital for a cut finger or a brain tumour
and not pay a penny
 
jrista
jrista
yeah, $50 isn't how much its going to cost americans to pay for public health care
its far more than that
@ElendilTheTall you do pay a penny...in taxes...nothing is FREE...thats the fundamental lie about public anything
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
anyways, I've got to go
@jrista not at the point of care
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
our amount varies dependent on your pay but it isn't a big number
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
I may have paid £25,000 in my life to national insurance, but I could get a £240,000 op tomorrow without paying any more
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
7:45 PM
and there are much less of us in the population than there are of you
 
jrista
jrista
doesn't matter at what point it is...you still pay, and the cost is far higher when the government forces more people than the system can handle to get health care, checkups, etc.
@ElendilTheTall but 9 other poor saps have to cover the other 225,000
 
rfusca
rfusca
@ElendilTheTall and what do you think would happen if everybody got a 250k op tomorrow?
 
jrista
jrista
because YOU, not them, needed health care....you are shirking your responsibility onto other people
health is a personal responsibility
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
have either of you ever donated to a charity?
 
jrista
jrista
not a public responsibility
 
rfusca
rfusca
7:47 PM
@JamWheel THATS A CHOICE
 
jrista
jrista
@JamWheel absolutely...couple thousand a year, usually
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
why though? screw them, it's their problem
 
jrista
jrista
lol...you really don't understand
 
rfusca
rfusca
because I believe that my charity of choice is an efficient method of helping the people I choose to help
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
you should choose to help humanity in general tbh
 
jrista
jrista
7:48 PM
yes, I should CHOOSE
 
rfusca
rfusca
but I don't like humanity in general
 
jrista
jrista
I should not be FORCED
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
sigh
 
jrista
jrista
there is a FUNDAMENTAL difference there....choosing and being forced. I was FORCED to help give General Electric something to the tune of 87 billion dollars...so they could make solar panels that they have sold to China.
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel btw, I'll be expecting a check from you, I have a surgery coming up and my copay is higher than I'd like. Its your responsibility to help me.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
7:49 PM
yes but that is making products versus looking after human beings
 
jrista
jrista
Why? Because solar panels are good for humanity? Well first off, thats highly debatable. Second, I gain no benefit of those solar panels, neither does my country, yet my tax dollars are funding a huge project for a PRIVATE company. Is that also my duty?
Where does this notion that everything should be in the public interest, and that the public should pay for everything, end?
how many areas of private life and private business does public control end?
If I want to invest in health care, I have the option to.
I have MANY ways to contribute.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
i suppose this is the same reason the US don't get involved in conflicts unless it affects their home soil / income
same reasoning
 
jrista
jrista
If I really care about supporting the development of new cancer cures, and there are some promising young companies doing so...I don't need the government to tell me to. I can do so just by buying their stock.
 
rfusca
rfusca
lol we're often accused of being too involved in worldwide morality policing
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
well, in oil rich countries... yes
:)
 
jrista
jrista
7:51 PM
@JamWheel Oh, our government is doing things with the rest of the world and all its wars that it should NOT be doing. As far as I am concerned, we should get the hell out of the middle east and africa, and leave those people the fuck alone untill they directly assult our sovereignty. I do not agree with america warring the world...its just as wrong as america telling people to buy everyone elses health care.
We have so much oil and natural gas underneath our feet it is unbelievable.
There is enough energy on our home soil to fuel the world for hundreds of years.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
yes but you don't want to drill it because it is more convenient to have oil spills on someone else's coast line
 
jrista
jrista
Instead, we wage war in the middle east to secure oil we barely use...we get most of our oil from the americas anyway.
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel i won't argue about america and its wars, i don't agree with them either. But we've definitely been told, internationally, to "back the f' off on playing the 'moral' card"
 
jrista
jrista
@JamWheel sadly, thats what a MINORITY of our country things, and since minority rules here...
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
i don't have an issue with stepping into a country if there is genocide kicking off etc
 
jrista
jrista
7:54 PM
But I am not a hypocrite here. I don't think rfusca is either. When we say we want the government to get their grimy hands OFF, we mean it in every way and every sector.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
what I was mentioning was that the US doesn't get involved unless something happens on your soil or the rest of the international community wants involvement
 
jrista
jrista
hmm...I wouldn't say that
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
probably the notable exception to that would be iraq
 
jrista
jrista
Lybia didn't come close to our soil, yet were bombing them. Why the hell are we bombing lybia?
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
which seemed to bizarrely be thought of as 'payback for 911' by many US citizens
 
jrista
jrista
7:55 PM
We don't even get a scrap of oil from Lybia, so its not even that. Its just another joke.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
because the dictatorship regime is directly targetting innocent civilians
and that isn't right
 
jrista
jrista
@JamWheel well, I see iraq as baby bush cleaning up daddy bush's incomplete war.
@JamWheel so are several other dictatorships, such as Iran...but we aren't invading them
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
sadam needed to go tbh - he was a nasty piece of work
 
jrista
jrista
I agree
 
Jay Lance Photography
Jay Lance Photography
Bla bla bla... WWII... Bla bla bla... More annoying plane talk... Bla bla bla... Health care... Bla bla bla... US vs UK... Bla bla bla... Politics... There. Now no one has to read the 500+ useless messages in chat from the last hour or two. :-P
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
7:56 PM
that is cos everyone is scared of Iran
 
jrista
jrista
but, that could have been done without a war
heh, we could have gone in and ended saddam in the silent of the night
same with any other dictator
why does it need to be a long, drawn out, public war?
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JayLancePhotography lol awesome
 
jrista
jrista
war is just another political tool
another way to exert power and control
 
Jay Lance Photography
Jay Lance Photography
@rfusca Providing a public service. That's what I'm all about.
 
jrista
jrista
its just as despicable as forcing citizens to buy health care, to pay for GE to make solar panels, or to buy majority stock in a car company
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
7:58 PM
or stop bad shit continuing to happen... like millions of jews being slaughtered and that sort of thing
 
jrista
jrista
if it comes to that, the world will step in
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
the US didn't until Pearl Harbour
 
jrista
jrista
at which point our sovereignty was violated, and we had just cause
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
millions of people being gassed isn't just cause to do something?
 
jrista
jrista
WW2 started in europe, where the sovereignty of numerous nations was under assult, and they rightfully fought
 
rfusca
rfusca
8:00 PM
@JamWheel so I'm assuming you're equally upset at the hundreds of other countries that didn't decide to hop in a war that costs the lives of their own citizens?
 
jrista
jrista
It boils down to a matter of policing the world, or protecting borders.
I don't believe there should be "world police"...such as the UN
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
most countries that could afford to were involved... there was the odd exception of course
 
rfusca
rfusca
if we'd have been fully devoted in Europe already, and Japan came swinging in the Pacfic..what do you think would have happened to us?
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
i just don't get the whole "if it doesn't affect me, fuck you, I don't care" attitude
 
jrista
jrista
when you have the power to cherry pick which murderous dictator to invade and which murderous dictator to ignore and which murderous dictator to ally with
its all a farce anyway
@JamWheel thats not it...not it at all
 
rfusca
rfusca
8:02 PM
@JamWheel i don't get the whole 'save everybody, fuck the people who are trying'
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
you managed to hold significant forces in both the european theatre and the pacific
 
jrista
jrista
Its "Its not my war, I have no right to intervene"
it seems the world has lost the meaning of sovereignty
the US does not have the right to police the world
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
i don't agree with the fact we haven't nailed Mugabe for example - because they don't have any resources we want... that annoys me just as much
 
rfusca
rfusca
@JamWheel because we could choose how to divide our forces, had they already been lumped over in Europe, its not as though we could magically transport them across the world
 
jrista
jrista
I am MORE than happy to come with the cavalry when someone calls for help.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
8:03 PM
Japan was a known threat anyway - you wouldn't have lumped all your forces in europe
 
jrista
jrista
And I am MORE than happy to protect our lands.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
Libya called for help
Europe called for help, granted we had some supplies etc
 
rfusca
rfusca
anyway, I've got to head
 
jrista
jrista
But if two peoples or two nations decide to war with each other...that is again their decision...and I don't believe the US has the right or responsibility to go in and police them.
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
we also had some brave US pilots who came to help in Europe - the US stripped them of their citizenship for their bravery, which was nice
 
rfusca
rfusca
8:04 PM
ciao fellas
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
that is the issue though isn't it
if there are 2 nations having a war, that is one thing
 
jrista
jrista
or one nation having a civil war
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
if a government is running about murdering its civilian population that is another altogether
then you get into the tricky definition of civil war
 
jrista
jrista
supposedly
however, no one stepped in when Iran did the same thing
my problem is cherry picking
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
again, we're all terrified of Iran for some reason
yes, that is a problem of mine too
 
jrista
jrista
8:05 PM
well, now there is a reason, the fuckers have nuclear capability
I guess I see it this way
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
well, they have nuclear power
that isn't the same as being able to fire nukes at people
 
jrista
jrista
either we make the decision to treat every nation on earth the same
dedicate every resource necessary to winning the wars we wage
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
i would love to see that
 
jrista
jrista
and end tyranny everywhere we see it
or stay the hell out of other peoples business and leave them all to fight things out amongst themselves
we could do the former
but the simple fact is, the middle east has a pattern, about once a generation, where the same thing occurs again and again
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
the middle east is a funny place - a very medieval system still
 
jrista
jrista
8:07 PM
so we could go in, support one side or another, fight a dozen wars, win a dozen wars, and let those countries set up new governemnts
but we'll just be at it again in another 40 years...and 40 years after that...and 40 years after that
its not our responsibility
those people have been warring with themselves and with the rest of the world for nearly 2 millennia
its not just culture...its who they are
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
as have all of us
 
jrista
jrista
and it seems clearly obvious to me that our pathetic attempts to instill democratic ideals over there are simply met with scorn and hatred
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
not entirely
 
jrista
jrista
which only serves to increase the danger to our country
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
it isn't as straight forward as that
 
jrista
jrista
8:09 PM
and america hasn't even been around for 1700 years
so there is no way we've been warring with the world for that long
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
so, close the borders and ignore everyone else - no problem i guess
 
jrista
jrista
its only been since the world wars that america has taken on the illbegotten role of world police
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
well, there was the war with the native americans
the civil war
 
jrista
jrista
local wars
not world wars or world policing
you know, if we have a civil war in the future
I seriously hope the rest of the world leaves us the fuck alone
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
well no - but as you introduce better means of travelling and effectively reduce the size of the world it is inevitable that you encounter other countries
 
jrista
jrista
8:11 PM
sure, but encountering them and taking on the role of deciding their future are two different things
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
a civil war requires 2 recognised military forces fighting each other...
if some hitler-esque lunatic starts gassing all people with diabetes or something i would hope someone would help out
 
jrista
jrista
heh
or a guy like saddam hussein and his sons, who's pastimes included feeding people feet first through industrial plastic shredders...feet first, so they could listen to them scream in agony for as long as humanly possible
why is it just america's responsibility to take care of that kind of thing?
why isn't it the responsibility of the people of that country to rise up and end their own dictator?
there are certainly enough people to overrun his military and kill the shit
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
well yes, but there are all sorts of religious groups that don't get on, some of which did quite well under him etc
 
jrista
jrista
oh...thats right...they are too busy warring with each other, vying for supremacy at a lower level
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
and it isn't just america's responsibility
 
jrista
jrista
8:15 PM
a fact that won't change regardless of who comes in and takes care of their evil dictator
and when america finally leaves the middle east, another evil dictator will rise to take saddams place
and the cycle will start all over again
the sects will still war, atrocities will still be perpetrated
and the next world power goes in, kills off the new dictator, screws around for a decade or two, leaves, and the cycle starts AGAIN
its not the dictator and the senseless killing that is the problem
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
UK is there, Australia is there, France, Germany, all sorts
 
jrista
jrista
its something that only those people themselves can change
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
well, religion is a massive part of most wards
 
jrista
jrista
and its something those people will have to change from within, since they are so resistant to change from without
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
wards?
wars
 
jrista
jrista
8:17 PM
lol
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
anyway, i need to sort some food out
 
jrista
jrista
so, yeah, we could go in again and again, wage war again and again...but its not going to change anything, all it will do is delay the inevitable
so yes, I advocate caution in respect to starting and getting involved in wars, and using them as a fundamentally LAST resort
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
well, i suppose, we're all fucked at the end of the day anyway - so who cares - might as well get it over and done with and nuke the shit out of everyone
 
jrista
jrista
heh, well, I'm pretty sure that day will come
soon enough
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
righto
 
jrista
jrista
8:19 PM
its not in humanities nature to leave well enough alone
 
JamWheel
JamWheel
have fun
i am offski
 
jrista
jrista
later
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
8:31 PM
well, it's been lively in here
 
rfusca
rfusca
@ElendilTheTall something like that
damn, power supply wasn't it either....this is insane....
i refuse to believe its the CPU
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
8:59 PM
can't be anything else can it?
 
rfusca
rfusca
:( not really
 
ElendilTheTall
ElendilTheTall
is the video onboard?
 
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