Photography Chat

yeh, given monitors mostly don't support it, most web services and printing work flows don't support it - you should steer clear unless it is really really essential to what you do and all your gear is up to it

dpollitt

please joke away! My friend is from iceland and all we do is make fun of his home country :-)

JamWheel

it isn't even a joke about Iceland

well it is

we have a store here in the UK called Iceland

they sell dreadful awful food, largely frozen

iceland.co.uk

dpollitt

ha

i have heard stories about some terrible dishes they serve in iceland

JamWheel

they had an even more dreadul (and still do) tv advertising campaign

dpollitt

looks like aldi

JamWheel

1:45 PM

in which "Mum's gone to Iceland" is sung by some children

so I was going to say "are you going to look for your mum"

mattdm

gtg

JamWheel

we have aldi and lidl too, they seem to sell things other than food though

laters matt

dpollitt

haha

no mum in iceland for me, but i get you

I am hoping for awesome photography opportunities

it should be pretty easy to find

JamWheel

Iceland?

i don't think the pilot will make you look for it

:)

i heard it is very expensive to eat there

because they have to import so much stuff

dpollitt

yea I've planned out 70USD per person per day for food for a 2.5 week trip

iceland, france, italy

that is like 50 euro/per day/person

JamWheel

2:00 PM

i have no idea whether that sounds right

it depends somewhat on where you're eating though

if you're buying breakfast, lunch and a dinner you might want to allow a bit more than that

D. Lambert

2:26 PM

@JamWheel How would a JPG straight out of the camera be any less "original" than a TIFF converted from that same JPG?

(scratches head)

JamWheel

well, if you keep that jpg seperately - it is very easy to accidentally make changes to a jpg without thinking about it (rotating it in windows picture viewer for example) which would then degrade the image. Keeping it in a TIFF would safeguard you from that

if you keep a 'safe' separate copy it would be alright i guess

D. Lambert

So, it's just a matter of whether you're able to keep your "safe" copy "safe".

JamWheel

yeh, i guess - much easier to keep a fragile vase safe if you wrap it in bubblewrap than leaving it on the side :)

D. Lambert

Make the originals read-only, offload to backup, etc.

That starts turning into a workflow discussion, I guess.

JamWheel

yeh, didn't explain what I meant very well in my comment at all, a tiff is a simpler starting point to marking things read only etc, at least in my mind

dpollitt

2:43 PM

it sounds like a lot of photogs here do some pretty advanced photoshop work, tiff, psd, etc. I hardly use photoshop anymore

JamWheel

@dpollitt i don't use it that much any more, I make most of the adjustments in Lightroom

D. Lambert

+1 LR.

dpollitt

yea that is what i am saying

i open up photoshop to use some actions that I have, and maybe once every few weeks if i have to use the clone tool

that is about it

JamWheel

@dpollitt I use photoshop if the shot needs more work. Shooting aircraft you have little control over the exposure so sometimes you need to do a bit of jiggery afterwards and I am more at home in PS for that sort of thing

dpollitt

yea

if it is an awesome image and i have the time and it needs that work, ill use photshop. but for portraits and stuff like that, 99% of the time if it isn't good in lightroom, photoshop wont save it

JamWheel

3:00 PM

LR does have some strange effects on things, I have noticed it introducing posterisation in places where PS wouldn't have - mostly when tinkering with the brush thing

that's the technical phrase for it by the way

rfusca

3:20 PM

hey all

@JamWheel - I'm still not sure on that lighting question....how a longer exposure would expose the background and not the subject

JamWheel

if the subject is stood in a darker area than the background you don't get enough light on the subject - it depends on the scene really. If they are stood in a lit area, yes, it will expose them as well.

rfusca

oh, well ya

i was assuming the person was standing in approximately the same exposure as the background

JamWheel

4:43 PM

then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place would there?

rfusca

@JamWheel they were trying to use flash - that was the problem

the answer is simply, 'dont' if you want the background and foreground the same. If its so dark out that you must use flash, you're not going to get the background and foreground both exposed properly with a sharp person

JamWheel

you can achieve it with 2nd curtain

rfusca

aaarg...there's no way

JamWheel

i have seen it illustrated as a valid technique in at least 2 magazines here

assuming the background is lit in some way

rfusca

when i get my camera back, i'll demonstrate what i'm talking about

right

JamWheel

4:50 PM

if it is such a long exposure you can do it too

rfusca

but its not

JamWheel

ok

bulb mode

expose background, put lens cap on, person stands in front, lens cap off, fire flash - done

:)

rfusca

interesting

JamWheel

might take a couple of goes to get the flash the right strength

rfusca

ya, that's what i was thinking

JamWheel

4:51 PM

but with long exposures in bulb mode you can happily get the lens cap on and off again without it beiong noticable

rfusca

now, that i would buy more than just firing off a normal second curtain camera-controlled shot

JamWheel

and you would only need a couple of goes

rfusca

you don't even need a lens cap...just cover it with your hat

JamWheel

he didn't mention the bckground was unlit - or rather I had assumed it would be, in which case the 2nd curtain thing works

or your hand if it is big enough

rfusca

the question is "..totally black background?"

kind of indicating it was dark

and it said at night lol

JamWheel

4:54 PM

really?

rfusca

ya

JamWheel

at night stuff tends to be illuminated - street lights etc

where is the q again?

rfusca

doing any shoots this weekend?

JamWheel

maybe with the new puppy

rfusca

7

Q: How do I take a portrait at night without a totally black background?

At first, sorry for my poor english. An hour ago (21 o'clock), I was trying to make a photo of my girlfriend with a D7000, Sigma 24-70 2.8, and SB-900. She was in the center of the frame, taking up about 20% of the frame. 40% was taken up by ground, and the rest was heaven (dark). I set my dia...

what kind of dog?

JamWheel

4:56 PM

"without a totally black background" doesn't say the background is totally black :P

labrador

flickr.com/photos/jameswheeler/5790392172

rfusca

"at night", i think we can err on the side that it was dark'ish at least

i gotta make sure my wife doesn't see me looking at those pics or we'll be buying a new puppy

JamWheel

:)

he says the heavens are behind his g/f actually

so we need to assume he wants to show the stars

edited my answer, left in the old one for ref to your comments

@rfusca lol

rfusca

@JamWheel upvoted :)

JamWheel

lol ta

rfusca

would there a be a ghost of a background image over her? - those pixels still exposed prior to the flash

JamWheel

5:06 PM

possibly, might be better to do it the other way round thenm

rfusca

well, there'd still be ghosting any way you do it I think

you're still talking about two seperate exposures overlaid

i think getting it sharp you're either talking about a high ISO shot or a digital cut&paste

JamWheel

as long as you expose her properly I wouldn't expect you to have too many noticable stars coming through,

rfusca

oh, thats very true

JamWheel

she should outshine them easily, so to speak

how do you think we managed to do this sort of stuff before digital :P

rfusca

:P

JamWheel

5:15 PM

did your new gloves arrive yet?

rfusca

Yup

went several rounds last night

@JamWheel had a banana and some yogurt for breakfast, and a salad (no dressing....if i'm going to try to get a healthy salad, i'm not sure what the point of putting dressing on it - ya know?) with a glass of skim milk for lunch

JamWheel

nice nice

rfusca

yup

JamWheel

keep it up for a couple of weeks and you will notice stuff changing :)

rfusca

thats my hope

JamWheel

5:18 PM

how did you find the boxing?

rfusca

actually you mentioned it on here, i went and did some research and it sounded like a good idea

something that I can fit into my schedule after the family goes to bed for the night

JamWheel

once you notice stuff changing, it is easier to keep; it up :)

it gets you really out of breath

rfusca

and since i've got bad knees and i'm overweight - until I get in better shape it limits the impact sports I can do ...like no running

JamWheel

can your knees take skipping?

rfusca

@JamWheel ya, if you really go at it, it gets your heart and lungs working....and its a bit therapeutic

JamWheel

5:21 PM

yeah you have to hit as hard and as fast as you can during the training

rfusca

skipping? i don't know, but its probably not a good idea. one knee is really bad - not pain wise, but the kneecap will slide out if the pressure is put on it wrong

JamWheel

do you run up stairs when you climb them? or down?

rfusca

@JamWheel well, everything I read, says go fast, but don't start hitting 100% power to start off, work up to it, otherwise you can hurt your wrists

@JamWheel there aren't really any stairs in my daily life

everything is ground level

JamWheel

yeh, defo warm up first, but once you're warmed up you can start belting it

really? huh

rfusca

yup

JamWheel

5:25 PM

my office has like 3 floors

i alwys take the stairs

my house has 2

rfusca

sure

JamWheel

we don't have an elevator

:)

rfusca

lol

mattdm

So, "How was this photo lit?" questions are on-topic, right?

JamWheel

your work is a single storey building then?

rfusca

5:26 PM

@mattdm amazon has a 'used - like new' k-5 for under 1.2k :)

mattdm

Cause in that sense, the answer to that question is "Sure! It's Stack Exchange."

rfusca

@JamWheel yup

JamWheel

i always think they're a bit daft - any answer is only speculation

mattdm

@rfusca man, I'd want a bigger discount than that for a used body, even "like new".

rfusca

@mattdm lol welll yes, but i don't think thats in the spirit of the question - but it may be the most realistic answer

@mattdm its still a couple of hundred off

D. Lambert

5:27 PM

That question is starting to look like a chat room.

mattdm

@rfusca I guess it depends on how much under 1.2k it is. :)

rfusca

edited my answer a bit for ya @mattdm

mattdm

@rfusca thanks man. :)

rfusca

yup

mattdm

2D->3D is a big research area, and it seems like figuring out the lighting is a key part of that. I've got a friend who works in that area (for Adobe's research lab) and I'll see what he has to say when I get a chance.

rfusca

5:32 PM

cool

my 2 year old just came up to me and goes "daddy, daddy help!" and puts a plastic turtle, a paper towel, and the rubber cover to a Wii remote in my lap and says "build".....what in the world am i supposed to do there lol

good read - moosepeterson.com/blog/2011/06/10/life-cycle-of-a-photographer

@mattdm apart from your kids/family do you have a kind of photography you normally like to do?

mattdm

6:01 PM

@rfusca awesome.

@rfusca I enjoy cityscapes. But I really don't have any time for it. :)

That requires a lot of wandering around alone and unfettered. So much for that!

rfusca

@mattdm lol ya, its tough to do with a family

its pretty much impossible to take the family to any shoot- even just the wife - if the plan is to focus on photography. For me at least.

mattdm

I figure I'll get plenty of practice with the kids now and then when they're a little older I'll have time for a hobby. :)

rfusca

lol ya

mattdm

Right now, it's hard to find my own time, but I know in a decade they'll be all "dad, go away! I'm busy doing my own thing". So I'll appreciate what I have when I have it.

rfusca

yup

its difficult to imagine equipment-wise what it'll be like in 10 years when that happens though

mattdm

6:15 PM

Yeah I guess I'll worry about that when we get to it. :)

Computational photography will be a bigger deal. We'll see more multi-lens setups.

I think point and shoot cameras will be obsolete — phone cameras will be as good or better than what we've got now in the high-end compact market, so there will be no point.

rfusca

ya, i think its going to be either a multi-device thats phone/organizer/portable computer/camera or a dslr-like camera

optically there's not alot of ways to get around the DOF issue - so you're really going to still have to have the big sensors/big glass for those kinds of shots

i suppose its possible one day that software could get good enough to mimic a shallow DOF on a small sensor

press the "like f/1.4" button

who knows

mattdm

Matrix of small cameras. Maybe a hundred or so of them. Each one has a small aperture high-dof lens, fixed focus. (Maybe different planes of focus for some of them.) Then, after the fact, you render with the properties of some imaginary big lens.

rfusca

interesting

hadn't heard of that

mattdm

Right now, there's some proof-of-concept stuff you can find online.

Pretty boring, but you can see where it's going.

rfusca

interesting

mattdm

6:25 PM

web.media.mit.edu/~raskar/photo

This connects to the question from earlier about light sources. :)

rfusca

cool

mattdm

Also theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2011/…

rfusca

hmm, i have a friend who recently graduated from MIT

mattdm

studying what?

rfusca

got a PHD in EECS

profiles.google.com/rywang.cs/about

check out what he invented - its pretty cool threegear.com

mattdm

6:30 PM

neat

rfusca

yup

k-5 ‘Automatic Horizon Correction’.....craziness

mattdm

6:47 PM

Yeah that's pretty cool.

It's actually really hard to get that last one percent straight when you're concentrating on something else in the composition.

rfusca

indeed

mattdm

And rotating after the fact is lossy.

rfusca

it sounds like from some of the tech that Pentax is doing that having a movable sensor is turning out to be useful for more than just IS

mattdm

It's like the gps astro-tracker thing — cleverly taking advantage of the movable sensor.

ha jinx

rfusca

:)

mattdm

6:49 PM

If you're doing macro work, you can also tweak the composition by moving the sensor up and down manually.

rfusca

really?

mattdm

Like a very very constrained tilt-shift. :)

Yeah.

rfusca

wow

mattdm

let me find the reference....

rfusca

i'm a lil' bummed that focus catch doesn't work unless the lens is manual or an af/m switch

mattdm

6:50 PM

eh can't find anything quickly on line.

but basically you can move it a mm or two to the left right up down.

@rfusca I know! It would be so easy to implement otherwise.

rfusca

sure, thats pretty neat

mattdm

Apparently you can short out the lens mount contacts and it works. I've never tried, though.

rfusca

@mattdm right..just don't turn the screw lol

with kids running at me, i've had a few times where focus catch woulda been nice

mattdm

Yeah seems handy at the playground. :)

JamWheel

@mattdm spirit level?

@rfusca what is focus catch?

rfusca

7:02 PM

telling the camera to take the picture as soon as it detects something in focus....so you prefocus and the subject runs into the shot and as soon as they're in focus, it snaps

JamWheel

hmm, why not just track the subject?

rfusca

@JamWheel lol spirit level? the k-5 has a electronic level and will auto rotate the sensor to make a horizon level, if you want

JamWheel

rotates the sensor?!

rfusca

@JamWheel you can, but most system, even the canon and nikon pro top of the line, still struggle with tracking somebody running straight at you

@JamWheel yup

JamWheel

that sounds like a whole unnecessary heap of stuff to go wrong right there

rfusca

7:05 PM

lol

i don't know about that

JamWheel

my Canon copes just fine with my dog running at me full tilt

rfusca

is just a benefit of the way they do IS

JamWheel

ah is on the sensor?

rfusca

ya

JamWheel

surely it doesn't do rotational stabilisation?

rfusca

7:06 PM

@JamWheel shrug i've just always been told its a common problem in all camera. Some do it better than others obviously

JamWheel

tbh, i would rather have them spend some money on something else when i can spend £1 on a hot shoe spirit level :)

rfusca

@JamWheel i don't believe so, but since it can move the system it generally opens up a wealth of options

right, but can you hand hold and look at the level?

JamWheel

probably not, you can just look at the scene though...

rfusca

shrug lol don't knock a tool that exists to make it easier to get right, with no downside

JamWheel

well, other than something extra that moves is an additional point of failure

that is a downside to me

rfusca

7:09 PM

but...its not something extra...its already doing it for IS

JamWheel

presumably it can only straighten within reason?

rfusca

and its not extra vs your setup, because you've just moved that part into the lens

JamWheel

why would it rotate to provide IS?

rfusca

@JamWheel oh, i'm sure

@JamWheel it moves it magnetically, and there's already an X and Y movement, so I can't imagine its difficult to move minor rotations

JamWheel

it does indeed stabilise in that direction, bizarre

do you use your camera in auto mode?

rfusca

7:13 PM

(i don't have that camera, yet) - but i never use my D3100 in auto

A, T, and M modes

JamWheel

why not? don't knock a tool that makes it easier to get right :-P

rfusca

"with no downside" :P

JamWheel

haha, i'll prefix that with an "allegedly"

:)

rfusca

lol

JamWheel

what about the extra hassle of having to turn it off if you want a tilted shot :)

mattdm

7:15 PM

@JamWheel yes, it does do rotational stabilization.

rfusca

vs digging a spirit level out of your bag?

mattdm

@JamWheel yes — 1° if image stabilization is on; 2° if it's off. But it's surprising how easy it is to see that 1° after the fact if there's an obvious horizon (like at the beach).

JamWheel

vs using your eyes?

:P

rfusca

@JamWheel is actually advocating going back to cave drawings....

JamWheel

@rfusca is advocating auto mode :)

rfusca

7:18 PM

i'll take auto mode over cave drawings

JamWheel

lol

at what point have I said you need to get a pen out :P

hmm, need to figure out how to set smugmug not to post comments until i approve them

rfusca

@JamWheel get some spam?

JamWheel

got an asshole who spams my site every now and then - the guy is a real nut job

rfusca

awesome

what's he say?

JamWheel

just random abuse really - he is properly barking mad

he was a mod on a forum i go on, and he lost the plot and they booted him off

rfusca

7:22 PM

lol

JamWheel

so, he has taken a shine to me for some reason - sends random emails now and then telling me how many photos he sells and suggesting I have no clue what I am doing

tis all very amusing really

poor guy

clearly not a well bunny

rfusca

hehe

JamWheel

found the setting, i do like Smugmug's help site

rfusca

interesting read - tiffinbox.org/what-happens-when-a-canon-shooter-uses-a-nikon

@JamWheel they want to go to a SE site

JamWheel

@rfusca always worry when wedding togs writing articles have example images with overexposed bride's dresses

rfusca

7:28 PM

@JamWheel you talking about this image?

JamWheel

at pro level I think Nikon are just tipping the balance atm, but I have too much money invested in canon glass for switching to be a viable option

yeh

@rfusca yes

rfusca

@JamWheel perhaps, in the end he concludes the he likes the nikon body better, but the canon bokeh better

JamWheel

i could give or take, I have held noinks before - they seem a bit weird at first, not used one at length though

mattdm

@rfusca yeah, definitely good — thanks.

JamWheel

pro lens availability is a pain apparently

rfusca

7:30 PM

@JamWheel what you mean?

JamWheel

their higher priced lenses can be hard to get hold of apparently

mattdm

I think it's funny that the example of technical stuff he doesn't bother with is "over custom functions and AF point placement algorithms". That doesn't even come close to the tech things people (me included!) obsess over. :)

JamWheel

@mattdm lol

rfusca

lol

JamWheel

yeah, you can over think it :)

rfusca

7:31 PM

@JamWheel hmm, interesting

JamWheel

does it take good pics and is the body easy to use? if so, why worry too much about the tech stuff

@rfusca could be wrong, could have been a limited time issue

rfusca

@JamWheel hmmm don't know

mattdm

"The shadows were more even, and had less contrast. Without knowing the in-depth technical aspects of AF, my gut feeling is this helped." Whelp, score -1 for the gut feeling. :)

JamWheel

lol, matt :)

rfusca

lol

JamWheel

7:35 PM

i do love my canon stuff, but if someone gave me a bag of equivalent gear to try for a day I would be happy to give it a go

rfusca

sure

i think this community is pretty brand friendly. Really, they all take good pictures, sooooo much of it is personal preference

mattdm

absolutely.

If we can keep that theme running, I will be so much less worried about camera recommendations.

JamWheel

nikon & canon tend to leap frog a bit for who pips who to the post

and both make excellent glass

rfusca

@JamWheel yup, and sony and pentax are both more envelope pushing in terms of the tech I think. They're trying to come out with features to attract the users from other brands, whereas Canon and Nikon are focusing largely on refining (not that this is bad or that each isn't also doing some of the other)

JamWheel

the thing that worries me about canon is they're beginning to include video in the SLRs

rfusca

7:42 PM

@JamWheel its gonna happen, accept it

JamWheel

some argue that it is easy enough for them to do, so why not

but then they start splitting their focus (pun not intended) on the tech

rfusca

sure

but its happening

embrace change

JamWheel

and the camera starts trying to become all things to all men, they stop specialising and you end up with a jack of all trades camera which masters nothing

why embrace degradation?

rfusca

ya, lets hope it doesn't go there

@JamWheel we're not to degradation yet

JamWheel

@rfusca not yet

tbh, i can see why you would want it in your consumer range

rfusca

7:45 PM

ya, sticking it in the pro range seems wierd to me too

but i guess there's some pros out there doing video and photo and it simplifies their life

JamWheel