The Statblock Forge

Zachiel

11:27 AM

Said friend sends me this: youtube.com/watch?v=iokdpH60bQM

Zachiel

11:45 AM

@BrianBallsun-Stanton whenever you want, I'm here

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:06 PM

@Zachiel .... no

I was tossing out exapmles. We never actually got the main want done.

I'd recommend rolling with a tier I class, but...

@BESW Ping.

The trick is that you want your simple dramatic hook to get you to self-start.

So "I want to be accepted into the group X, but they won't have me until I prove my worth." "I can prove my worth by eliminating the abberation menace from this area"

"I can remove the menace from this area by identifying the dungeons and finding help."

you are motivated to do these things

you have a credible motivation to do these things.

You have a means, and you have a flaw.

Do you see the pattern?

There are so many ways to instantiate the pattern of drama, but this is a basic pattern that provides you a mechanism for fun.

Because you want things, and you know how to achieve them

Zachiel

btw: character creation rules (updated, I think) docs.google.com/document/d/…

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

hahahaha

yeah, I'm not going to bother with giving you mechanical suggestions

that's not your problem

Zachiel

So I need both a readon to have moved from my original place (I don't like all of a sudden adding a lvl 14 character to that place), a reason to stay there and a reason to do things while there

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

no.

You need a reason to do things while there. That is of prime importance

all the rest is your backstory.

Zachiel

k

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:13 PM

"a reason to stay" is to do the things there

Zachiel

but it must be things I can't do elsewhere

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

we're doing a very simple dramatic structure.

No

It's a simple "I want to do things here." Then hang a lampshade on it.

Zachiel

Really?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yes.

Want, fufill want over coruse of story, want frustrated by opposition. Oppostiion overcome. Catharsis

New story deals with the complications from the previous.

it's the oldest story there is.

Zachiel

Let's trust you then. I need to find out what I want to do for real, or better, what my character wants to do that I can like playing.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:16 PM

Yes.

Exactly so!

Scouting is useful because it's a fundamental service

and it's an opportunity for self-starting and... I imagine, avoiding actual conflict.

Being a castery type is useful, especially if not hugely optimised, because it's a fundamental service

Zachiel

I'm not that sure it's that fundamental. What can I offer others can't?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

wrong question

Have you had any econ classes?

Zachiel

(I guess this is mechanical and I guess good-aligned people will like giving me things to do even if there's other people who could, so this could be a problem in my mind only)

econ?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Division of labour

The division of labour is the specialization of cooperating individuals who perform specific tasks and roles. Because of the large amount of labour saved by giving workers specialized tasks in Industrial Revolution-era factories, classical economists such as Adam Smith and mechanical engineers such as Charles Babbage were proponents of division of labour. Also, having workers perform single or limited tasks eliminated the long training period required to train craftsmen, who were replaced with lesser paid but more productive unskilled workers. Historically, an increasingly complex...

Zachiel

oh, not character classes

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:17 PM

Yes. School classes.

Division of labour means that even if someone is better in all things than you, you're still useful because you can allow them to do the things that they are best at.

By choosing to not be all things to all people, you need people, and therefore need to include other adventurers to fufill your want.

cool?

Zachiel

Now it's more than one year I'm away from that game and I don't know the actual social interactions but you know, being D&D tier one classes can just change their spell selection and cover any role

which makes me think I should play a tier 1 class just to fill niches as I find them

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

ugh.

choose to be a thing. Embrace the thing. Make positive choices.

Be Tier II. SAy "I shall do these things, but not these other things. I need help for these other things."

Build in needing help to your character. Fundamnetally to your character.

Zachiel

I have no problems in needing help anyway. I needed help as a Chameleon, trust me.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Don't make choices that allow you to sidle away from actually taking a stand.

... right

but it's harder for other people to articulate how you can help them

Remember, a store front and division of labour is useful because it identifies to "the market" what you offer.

So, what does your character "sell" and what does your character "need"

Again, we're at very simple adventurer here.

Honestly, if you could bank most of your levels into some magical pot in the sky, and go back to level 4, you'd likely have more fun.

Zachiel

I can, but I'd gain XP and gold way slower

But I surely can play that game for a while

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:24 PM

okay, and does XP and gold provide utility to you?

remember, our goal in this is "I want a character I can have fun with."

not "I want a character to win"

cause your DMs have made so many bullshit decisions that ... meh

Zachiel

to me as a player? One of my main complaints as a player is that, since the more you level the more gold you gain in an exponential gain, leveling faster than them is the only way not to lag behing long-time players in terms of earned gold

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

So, unless the XP serves an extrinsic need

Zachiel

But I guess, since I'm not playing to rush against anyone...

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

So do you care about levelling faster than them?

Again, articulate your needs.

What I'd recommend is to "bank" all of your XP as a level 14 person and just hang around the level you want for a while.

Just tell the DMs that you want to earn your gold and xp only from adventuring, and the normal outputs to go into some mythical bank for later.

and that you'll handle adventure rewards as appropriate by pulling from that bank to reflect accomplishments

So you don't lose your level 14 accumulation, but your narrative in-game isn't impacted by it at all.

Zachiel

I used to care. I had a terrible 20 days where I went home trom work, played, eated, played again (unless I went out with friends or had other things to do - I mean this game totalized all my free time) or complained with people in the game about how unfun it was to play alone all that time.
I swore to myself: never again.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:27 PM

@Zachiel Yep :)

again, my fundamental recommendation is to find a healthier environment, even if you have to found it yourself.

but well, you already know that.

Zachiel

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I'm gonna start with the XP of a level 13

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel by choice, or because of magical penalties?

Zachiel

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Yes I know, but I don't really like all this fragmenting the players on different places, asking them to play at me instead than at theirs... I might be a victim of the social geek fallacies.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel :)

I'd recommend a good long read of slatestarcodex.com

but, we digress.

Ask your DM if the magical XP/gold bank is viable, please.

Zachiel

@BrianBallsun-Stanton When I was forced to stop playing the previous character I just hit level 14. With the 10% xp penalty imposed to character changes, or with the 5% one that ends in 9 and a half hours, I drop to level 13

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:31 PM

@Zachiel Right, so get a quick answer on "banking them"

cause level 13 is way too powerful.

Or, find a foe appropriate for level 13 parties, but... decoupling the reward mechanism from the plot is never wise

So, what's your character's want?

Zachiel

Wait a moment, I think something lit up somewhere in my brain

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

okay

Zachiel

If I already had a character it would be easier to decide what that sort of character wants. Like, if I was a wizard I could want to gain enogh money to learn all the existing spells.
Since I'm proceeding backwards, it's really "what do you want to explore with your character", like you said yesterday. Did I say something that made you think it was more useful to reword that?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel no. That's a very good thesis statement.

Zachiel

(writing all the spells in my book, BTW, was one of the targets of my chameleon character)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:38 PM

I prefer to work from effect to cause

since effects are always more relevant

and just work backwards to the "now"

but ... if you have an extant character, there's nothing wrong with asking "what is she dissatisfied with?"

Zachiel

As I told you I have some character seeds (and the probably unhealthy idea that I want to get Merchantile Background, because buying at 75% instead that buying at 80 and leaving 5% in the hands of another PC is better. But hey, that's a need. Fate probelm: greedy.)

of coures that problem is only solvable with PC intervention. NPCs sell at full price.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yes

it's not... really worth interacting with the economics of D&D

at all.

too much cognitive dissonance breaks suspension of disbelief

and money's awfully abstract

Zachiel

except for the part where, if you're a mercahnt, non-merchant people come at you asking you to buy them something.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

... ugh, boring.

you're an NPC

Don't. Be. an NPC.

people come to you because you do this one thing well

and you're fun to be with because you have needs and flaws

(the one thing can be adequately broad... but..)

avoid money games, they're distracting and seductive

Zachiel

Have I told you the part where I don't buy equip unless I find someone able to sell it to me at a discount? ç_ç

But I digress

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:45 PM

See my prior statement.

Greed is a drama killer, most of the time, because it leads to inaction.

(Cupidity is different... but that's not what we're talking about)

(connotation-wise)

A normal greedy person is a cheapskate.

A bribeable person is a narrative asset

anyways. Ignore money, it's a trap, especially in 3.5, especially in your game.

in fact, go so far as to build in a charitable mission to your character, so you can convert money into validation.

Zachiel

I do this one thing well and it'd better be something I like to roleplay.
When I think at a character I usually say I like him to be a melee character. I like to play weird polymorph effects (like we explored when I mentioned wanting to morph into a drider in public). My chameleon was a demisexual character that wanted to marry her fiancée but wanted people to accept same-sex marriage first (just to say, I'm not new to this goal thing but... why is it so hard now?)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

.......

it's hard now because this is the first time you're setting a goal.

There are lots of "goals"

or things we call goals.

The hard bit is the question "what do I want"

Zachiel

the other times it kind of born from play, you mean?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

not as a backstory for a bundle of mechanics

but as a "this is what I actually goddamn want to do"

the source of your passions and your flaws.

It's hard

Most people, especially in D&D never deal with this

Zachiel

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I see

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:50 PM

they passively graze the plots handed to them by the DM, and have a bundle of characterizations

Which, as we've demonstrated, is insufficient for your alien-space-bat-game

therefore, you actually have to buckle down and be an Author. And this is real work.

It's also hard because in order to play drama, you have to connect to the true thing in you that resonates with that drama

which implies a vulnerability.

Zachiel

We already said we want to stay away from Man vs Man. Man vs. Nature is not really a thing since Nature is seldom involved in this kind of world. Man vs. Self requires to be paired with one of the others...

Which was the fourth one?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

(lots of debates)

society tends to be the foruth though

but man v. nature/environment is exactly what we're going for

Zachiel

ok

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

You want to hit the world until the world gives you a thing to get you what you want

Zachiel

So I need to define what I want. Back to 1.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:57 PM

Yep :)

and I'm not allowing you to dodge

cause I'm an asshole and a professor

Zachiel

I think being a professor is enough

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

:)

Zachiel

And was this a test I'd be probably sent back to my place with a 4 for not being able to provide the answer but having demostrated to having understood the question.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

:)

Zachiel

I believe my fear of getting out of this conversation with a character I don't like is preventing me from accepting simple goals such as "I want to stop monstrous humanoids and worse from attacking civilization and nature in some specific area"

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:02 PM

I hear you.

turn that into an aspirational goal

add a "so that"

... in some specific area so that I may achieve ..."

Zachiel

If I wanted to play an evil character I'd say "so that this village's villagers recognize my cult as useful to their burg and the good guys are forced to let me thrive out of popularity". It's something I wanted to do but not this time. Being evil is still too hard for me.

This would have been a good goal, right?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

way too complex.

that's a plan of action

"I want to be powerful enough to be tolerated by the good guys."

Zachiel

In a good character case it might be "to protect the place I want to call home"

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

or "I want to be worshipped"

boring

also unachievable

the climax is the resolution of the thing

Zachiel

hey, wait, I want to be powerful enough to be tolerated by the evil guys. XD (I don't think that works either)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:08 PM

no

which evil guy?

"I want to forge a demiliterized zone with thay" is an example of that

Zachiel

Question: If I know more or less which NPCs and PCs are active in each subzone of the game's map, does this mean this choice will influence who I will play with, or that it should be informed by who I'd like to play with?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

effect then cause

"I want to play with these people, so therefore, these things will cause me to play with these people."

Zachiel

I know the main evil organizations are evil lychantrope tribes, barbarian evil tribes, the cult of the dragon, the zhentarim, evil churches like bane's, the society of the kraken, the arcane brotherhood of Luskan and possibly many others I don't know about

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yep. And making up a spooky org is easy. Anyways

Zachiel

Should I ask which are active in the zone?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:12 PM

sure

Zachiel

Oh, I can choose a non-existing one, even if I'll probably never face it unless some DM decides to fish in my backstory? I'm not sure they do, because my last backstories were quite weak, but I think I've seen it done for other characters in the past.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

well, it's your primary motivation

you'll be asserting that it's there

you will be finding out its activities as your first action

nothing in the world exists save in your gaze.

therefore, you can helpfully insert stuff "offstage" to look at.

so use an extant org, if possible. But the exact nature of your foe is... not relevant unless it helps fufull your out of character objectives

Zachiel

Well, it'ss an estabilished setting so getting some organization that is in the setting is helpful both because the DMs already know what it is and I'm not introducing new things that are not under my authority

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yes

Zachiel

(People is making pression on me so I can play with them. At least it makes me feel wanted.)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:23 PM

Yes :)

Zachiel

Looks like there are Zhentarim, Amn's Shadow Thieves (which would be perfect if I played the Amniote wizard that was built to be a merchant's son and go help the mysterious problems with the local store), Red Wizards

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yep

Thay's always fun

but all of them are "a wizard did it"

so, what's your goal?

Zachiel

I don't know. Most thayan enclaves are made by neutral wizards who only want money to foster research

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Yes.

so, shadow theives or the Zhentarim?

or make it specific

There's a thayan necromancer/alientist who isn't cleaning up after himself.

very powerful, backed by thay, etc..

(replace Thay by any org)

a direct confrontation will have the might of $org drop on your head

Zachiel

mmmh I'm getting more info on which enemies there are in the zone where these guys asking me to play are settled, and who are their enemies

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:31 PM

so, what's your objective?

what do you want to achieve or impress?

Zachiel

My objective is to defeat this enemy, be it a single person or a cell of an organization. I'd really like to discover about it once there, i.e. having a different motive to move in than "I'm on the hunt" but things get complicated. The plan of action then is letting word out of my mission and discovering there are people who can help me and go at them and ask them if I could help them in return, which should ensure me some social action)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yes

okay, so learn to use maybe a 10th of the words :)

simple is much better here

your objective is not to defeat this enemy

Zachiel

letting out word, maybe?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

your means to the objective is to defeat the enemy

and defeat is boring

Zachiel

I didn't want to use kill

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:34 PM

nonono, kill is defeat

boring

Zachiel

stop?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

I'm quite capable of using a thesarus

Zachiel

as in stop their current activities?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Contain, force a truce with..

figure out why you can't just nuke him from orbit, it's more fun

"contain the outputs of their lab" is so much more fun than "kill" since you can make them so stupidly powerful that you can't kill them, and therefore need to be creative

Zachiel

might be "because there are always more of them" (like if I'm trying to contain undead under Luskan's graveyard, or preventing lycanthropes from storming the towns south of the Lurkwood Forest)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:37 PM

hrmmmm

setting some strategic goal is useful

"always more" is boring, since that just iterates on "kill"

Zachiel

I remember you I can suggest and maybe create opposition (but it's better to find out existing one) but I can't control their ations and reactions.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yes, beatuful

that's exactly what you want

you want to suggest a very high level wizard, who you then need to figure out how to contain

Zachiel

I can't even control if there is a reaction, which is worse.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Yes :)

it's actual risk

Zachiel

I might be chasing ghosts

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:39 PM

which generates conflict whcih can generate drama

Zachiel

which might be a good hook nonetheless

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

yes.

Zachiel

yeah

this is it

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

What hapepns when you trample all over someone else's land in search of this white whale?

but again, what's your fundamental want?

we're talking objectives

not desires.

Marry someone important? Join some sort of epic guild?

Zachiel

I thought marrying someone important was something to avoid as a goal since it depends on the other players.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:43 PM

npc

Zachiel

Joining the Super Friends was a dream of mine. But you know, not high enough in level, not enough ambitious, not enough backstory in the region, not enough famous and the player I had to avoid playing with was the one who had the idea first

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

but specifically it's fufilling "I want love"

right....

Zachiel

marrying an NPC? Discarded

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

hrmm

does sigil exist?

Zachiel

It exists, but the game is focused on a small portion of Faerun

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:44 PM

right...

Zachiel

so planning something big outside the game area is not a great idea. I'd get isolated

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

right

so therefore who is epic in the game area who you want to impress?

Zachiel

Digression: Leilani lives in Sigil

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

NPC

Zachiel

I don't think there are epic npcs in the area (or maybe I should ask... not even Drizz't is IIRC). There are some epic PCs who can't exactly get more power than the non-epic NPCs because giving too much power to some players would smell of favoritism, high level characters are enough locked in their places already and reasons.

there are rulers, tho'. The high captains of Luskan, Greeth of the Arcane Brotherhood, the Marchions of Mirabar, the King of Neverwinter and several others I don't know about.

I mostly know those of the places I used to play and I want to avoid for a while

Also, one of the epic PCs has based her character on willing to become Luskan's grey eminence so the captains and the brotherhood are already taken

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:50 PM

excellent

so which ruler do oyu want to kiss up to?

Zachiel

These guys asking me to come back are located in Lurkwood and in Neverwinter

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

so, "I want to become a duke of neverwinter."

or whatever

"In order to do taht, I need to prove that I'm capable of containing epic threats"

Zachiel

I currently like lurkwood more, but AFAIK it's a wild place

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

and so, level 20 caster (probably tier 2, cause tier 1 caster sare ansty)

sure, but what rulership is there?

who owns it?

Zachiel

let me check

mmmh the site lists no authority over the place but orcs, ettins and giants

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:54 PM

cool

Zachiel

I know there's a good guild who colonized an ancient oak tree there

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

"I want to be acknowledged by the major tribes of orcs, ettins, and giants as a rightful duke of the land: someone they'd rather negotiate with than invade."

then you go to "contain the ouputs of this one evil caster who's accidentally pissing off everyone"

because that's a good way of impressing everyone without being a "yet another stupid adventurer"

Zachiel

I don't think it's a reachable goal, except maybe if I want them to steer away from some specific areas I control, to avoid them going to the nearby city of Nesmé

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

and that leads you onto other adventures

But steering them away is just fine.

you want them to say "eeh, not bother him. He's too annoying."

or "Evil wizard move in, ask him, he deal with."

feared, useful, a leviathan.

Zachiel

Nobanion, with its domains of Nobility and Animal, looks like a great combo between "druids and rangers and adventurers guild" and "I want to become duke of this land"

@BrianBallsun-Stanton ? Expand please

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:57 PM

so, the name of the game of governments is that activity costs resources

If you have a powerful neighbor, and some asshole moves in, it costs less to ask a favour of the neighbor than to deal with the guy yourself

(this is one of the reasons why governments exist)

You want to be that guy for this region.

Now, let's make it more interesting. "I want to assume my lost birthright and become duke of this land, like my great ancestors before me."

which is bullshit backstory, but provides useful characterisation

do oyu see how that is, fundamentally "I want to be duke of this land?"

Zachiel

Uh, oh, no, let's steer away from being the rightful king and such

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

cool

so "I'm tired of being pushed around. I want to be a duke"

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