Root Access

3:00 AM

so I type in exit in the console, and instead of showing just troubleshoot and turn off your pc, it says now Continue (exit and continue to Windows 8.1)

Bob

It's not easy to get a rootkit in place without a user confirming the action.

With XP, it was too easy.

The user would run as admin, no UAC, any program run could modify the system.

Now, at least the user has to confirm those actions (privilege escalation attacks notwithstanding - those are bad, they're bugs, and they get fixed)

But to even get to that point, the attacker needs to break out of the browser.

DemCodeLines

Just rebooted it (by hitting exit and continue ...) and now it says "Preparing automatic repair"

Bob

One reason why most attacks now target the user.

Psycogeek

@Bob like how far my car gets when the switch is OFF ? You have to GET a rootkit to have one, where would you get one? Lets see the #1 and #2 way that people get compromised.

DemCodeLines

now black screen

Bob

3:02 AM

@Psycogeek No, you don't.

But the point is - to be in a position to place a rootkit, you need to break into the userspace first.

DemCodeLines

Wait, this might actually work after all this.

Bob

To get there, you need to break through the browser first, assuming it's a malicious site that's attacking.

To get there, you need to break through the sandbox the browser places around webpages. (Or, often an indirect attack on plugins, not the browser itself...)

DemCodeLines

viruses are there because users are stupid

Bob

Those are all layers. Each one needs to be broken through to get to the next.

DemCodeLines

and they will continue to be there until MSFT and others don't build their products idiot-proof

Bob

3:03 AM

Back in Win95, those layers didn't exist. No focus on security at all.

Now, the user usually needs to actively confirm something.

Win95, visit a website and you're done.

DemCodeLines

lol

Psycogeek

@Bob All i said was before with win95 you knew what was going on and could control it. Sure it now controls itself for you. . . and how well has that worked :-)

So they still have the viruses, they still are compromised, but they got 10 locks, so freaking what.

Bob

@Psycogeek No, actually. You couldn't. Not at all.

Win95, the kernel was still a black box to most, if not all, people.

Visit a malicious site, you're compromised, again without knowing it (except malware in those days were usually joke or destructive...).

Psycogeek

Now it takes a PHD or a re-install to figure out what happend.

Bob

And you wouldn't have any idea.

Now, at least you have a great honking big box asking for confirmation.

Except for the idiots who tell people to disable it.

Psycogeek

3:09 AM

@Bob Explain to me how a Text viewer ONLY and a Picture viewer ONLY could get a virus? nooo it takes a lot of great features for that to work.

Bob

@Psycogeek Malware authors got more creative. More advanced.

But, seriously, a compromise of a Win95 machine can easily be far worse, and is far easier to accomplish, than a modern one.

You speak as if malware is all the same.

The malware itself is more advanced.

It doesn't give two shits how much you "know" is going on.

Psycogeek

What most people are doing on the web could have stayed benign. but instead they wanted all the features, and what do they do ON the web? 99% of the time viewing stuff.

Bob

@Psycogeek What's a text viewer or picture viewer going to do without a monitor? Without a keyboard/mouse?

DemCodeLines

@Bob Basically the laptop ran out of battery and suddenly went off. When I powered it back again almost an hour later, it would stay on the Windows 8 logo boot screen for a little longer than usual and then quickly flash a boot screen before it would restart and it kept looping.

Bob

Are you using a text viewer or picture viewer only?

No, you're not.

That argument doesn't even apply.

DemCodeLines

3:11 AM

The error was UNMOUNTABLE BOOT VOLUME

Bob

IF that was all you were using, and if you never loaded external data onto the system, sure.

DemCodeLines

Sinc then, I have been trying to make it work.

Bob

@DemCodeLines Does it work now?

DemCodeLines

Right now, there is a black screen with a cursor. Hard disk light is on, blinks sometimes but is mostly on.

Bob

@Psycogeek Attackers would still have found a way.

'course, plugins are typically terribly written. But that's beside the point.

Psycogeek

3:13 AM

@Bob I have many programs that there could be a virus in a data file, and without a feature for running programs, running scripts, connecting to the web and all the other Stuff. how would an exploit work on that program? they found a way because they found a feature, a feature that most people did not need. Could people have lived without macros in a word program?

Bob

All of this has nothing to do with the idea that disabling core OS security measures is a fucking terrible idea.

@Psycogeek Are you fucking serious?

DemCodeLines

what the freakin' heck. It's still black screen

Psycogeek

What percentage of peole trying to write a simple letter in Word, required macros?

Bob

Basic buffer overrun attacks.

Nothing to do with macros.

File says something is 10 bytes. It's actually 50.

Loads 50 bytes without checking. Clobbers internal structures. You've got yourself an attack.

Now, that's usually guarded against nowadays (cf. heartbleed).

But there are plenty of attacks when dealing with untrusted data.

Feature bloat does occasionally open up new avenues, yes.

Psycogeek

@Bob Going on about heartbleed , oh wow catch of the day exploit, this is becomming highly redundant.

Bob

3:16 AM

But that, again, is not an argument for removing security from the OS.

@Psycogeek Going on about features being "bad" is better, how?

DemCodeLines

wait wait, what is the argument here?

Bob

@DemCodeLines Beats me.

DemCodeLines

that there should be no security?

Bob

I'm just responding to his rant that apparently he can create a completely secure OS either from scratch or by ripping out most parts of an existing one.

I don't deny that feature bloat opens up avenues of attack. But, at the same time, claiming that a new OS is less secure than Win95 of all things is just... I really don't have words strong enough to describe it.

Psycogeek

@Bob Ok, explain how heartbleed effects me. You could steal all my passwords, get all my user info provided on the web, and that would get you what? the ability to delete my posts :-) Who am I even? the ability to mess up all my online acounts? Why there is no money in it, and the web is the web it is not reality, so what could they do?

DemCodeLines

3:19 AM

If you really want a secure OS, you might as well start from bottom up, not edit an existing one

that wouldn't work.

Bob

@DemCodeLines Good luck.

Lemme tell you, if anyone here tried to write an OS from scratch it'd either be absolutely useless (very likely) or absolutely riddled with bugs and holes (equally likely, if it actually worked).

@Psycogeek It's an example of an attack.

More than just an example, because it exists in the real world.

You're the one latching onto heartbleed.

Psycogeek

@Bob Win7 is less secure for me. I was able to fully control the OS and I/O and everything up to win XP, then it got to interdependant on inter and outer connections. they started applying all that web carp internally too.

Bob

I used it as an example of an existing, severe, vulnerability affecting web browsers, twice.

That's all.

@Psycogeek Again, nonsense.

Psycogeek

@Bob Ok then you come over here and control it :-)

Bob

Unless you wrote your HDD drivers from scratch, your FAT drivers from scratch, you had effectively zero control over their operation.

DemCodeLines

3:22 AM

Well, you just take top engineers around the world and begin :D

Bob

Unless you're reading bits off your HDD with a magnetised needle.

DemCodeLines

ReactOS

:D

Bob

@Psycogeek I never made claims to personally be able to break into another's system.

I'm saying that it's certainly possible, has been done, and is still being done.

Psycogeek

@Bob Ya think i would know if my drivers were sending out info over the wire. . . untill the wire became used for "shit i dont need"

Bob

@Psycogeek No, you wouldn't have known. Not even with Win95.

Psycogeek

3:23 AM

@Bob And it will continue to be done.

DemCodeLines

Psycogeek

@Bob Back in win95 the modem didnt even light up :-) at all, if the person wasnt doing something. Modems Turned OFF (what a concept) when they were not used. Gee now how is that unlike today, with wild wilrelss signals from every home running at minimum for 2/3rds longer than they are used for.

Bob

@Psycogeek There's nothing stopping you from bridging a DSL modem and turning off keepalives.

Heck, there's nothing stopping you from using dialup.

Go ahead.

Go do it.

That's got nothing to do with the OS.

DemCodeLines

dialup? come on now. That's just pushing the line

Bob

@DemCodeLines Well, it's what he's apparently lamenting the loss of.

Psycogeek

3:27 AM

In win95 you usually Purposfully downloaded and installed stuff. not blindly did it. your 10year old kid didnt push the wrong button, and the software didnt come with crap in it.

Bob

@Psycogeek Oh, you'd be very very surprised.

The software that was commonly used on Win95 tended to break the entire OS.

DemCodeLines

lol (@ breaking the os)

Bob

And those stories of people deleting the System32 folder? Yeaaaa...

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines It is all about progress. bob thinks we have it, i say there "was another way" the directions chosen , even if that meets the needs of the 1% was clearly not the best way to "improve" sure we got 50 more locks for the 500 more features with the 200 more holes.

DemCodeLines

Well, it's true that more features introduces more loopholes

but at some point, you gotta settle with it

tradeoffs

Bob

3:30 AM

@Psycogeek As a whole, you're claiming that Win95 was more secure. That's just... plain wrong.

Psycogeek

@Bob Yea, and all they had to do was copy it back again. This isnt really security at all, this is just A) reducing user awareness B) another reason why they forced everything to be installed (even when off).

Bob

Security wasn't even a thought in the design of 95.

DemCodeLines

yeah, wasn't win95 all about the new explorer?

with start, new gui and all that?

YEEEES, NOW IT SAYS DIAGNOSING YOUR PC!!!

Hopefully it results in something good

Took 31 minutes, but oh well

Psycogeek

@Bob Security didnt require going back to the 50 teams of programmers who applied the interdependencies into the system, to figure out how it all worked or was exploited because of the dependencies.

Bob

@Psycogeek That's not even remotely true.

Psycogeek

3:36 AM

It was zero complexity , and zero featured kind of thing. fairly easy to spot something going badly. heck the system had a hard time keeping itself alive , let alone supporting some poorly written virus .

Which car would you rather fix, the one with a 5HP engine hooked to a chain, or a Prius .

Bob

Windows is remarkably modular. It's not too difficult to trace any dependencies, not that that's actually necessary for most of the security measures (with operate at a lower level, e.g. ASLR, or a higher level, e.g. UAC).

@Psycogeek You're saying you'd rather use the former?

DemCodeLines

I remember watching Pirates of Silicon Valley and Gates would yell at his team about why they were not completing the OS more quickly, during the days of their competition with Apple computers

Bob

I'd fix the latter just so I wouldn't have to look at the former.

@DemCodeLines Movie dramatisations aren't always accurate, keep that in mind.

DemCodeLines

true

Bob

@Psycogeek And the malware that oh so nicely hooked themselves into the interrupt handlers? Which could be done from any program. No such thing as user and kernel separation.

Psycogeek

3:40 AM

@Bob I would still be useing each of the OSes that i was used to and could control, but for hardware support. . . . and games maybe. I upgraded for Large Hard drive support 2 times (for example)

@Bob And the malware that now hooks itself to 20 layers of the same :-)

DemCodeLines

I am pretty sure, however, that Microsoft actually did rush those OS releases

and since each release builds on top of the code of the previous one, it probably got worse over the years

Add on top of that the incredibly huge backwards-compatibility win32 layer and it probably got worse.

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines It is just to bad that somone didnt get back in the garage and start again from scratch. My mac buddy tells me that the apple stuff is no different. andorid could be concidered a simplification.

Bob

@DemCodeLines Migration to the NT kernel with 2000/XP. Major kernel rewrite with Vista.

The kernel is pretty new.

Most of the backwards-compatibility stuff is handled in higher levels now.

If there were a flaw, it's still not a direct path into the kernel.

Psycogeek

I would die to not have backwards compatability, but i can see that covering keeping the backwards compatability makes a huge layer of messes.

DemCodeLines

@Psycogeek Android is worse. From it's first line of code to last, it's a bloated piece of software and infringes on every possible patent out there, no wonder MS makes billions off it every year

@Bob Oh yeah, but that was pretty bad too. Since they almost completely re-wrote everything, but then left off mid-way because it took too long.

Psycogeek

3:51 AM

@Bob The safety of the kernal, and the dll hell stuff that was discussed, never became a concern in MY uses. I did not need these kinds of changes. There were others who were confused by this great need, who stood around reading how nessisary it was. "oh boy i am glad you fixed that problem we never had".

Bob

@Psycogeek Good for you.

Psycogeek

Replaced by a Side by side hell, that people cant even comprehend, and they still just re-install :-)

DemCodeLines

Windows should just automatically replace system files with default ones if they get broken. That way, Windows never crashes!

Psycogeek

That is what i do not get about tripple redundancy , like system restore, it only actually fixed the usual stuff 50% of the time, but people started applying it like a backup. It was the same thing with seatbelt laws, the number of car injuries and deaths did not change, but people became even more unaware as more pedestrians were killed. (i am saying that people do not wake up, they just lasily adapt in the worst ways).

allquixotic

!!tell 15065796 wiki Windows_Resource_Protection

ChatBot John Cavil

3:57 AM

Windows Resource Protection

Windows Resource Protection is a feature in Windows Vista that replaces Windows File Protection. It protects registry keys and folders in addition to critical system files. The way it protects resources differs entirely from the method used by Windows File Protection. Overview Windows File Protection works by registering for notification of file changes in Winlogon. If any changes are detected to a protected system file, the modified file is restored from a cached copy located in a compressed folder at %WinDir%\System32\dllcache. Windows Resource Protection works by setting discretionary...

Psycogeek

@ChatBotJohnCavil Turned it off, like i have turned off similar before. why is it that my system goes for 10 years without a re-install and the people they make all this crap for still re-install ?

DemCodeLines

registry shouldn't work like it does right now

any application can modify it?

that whole concept is majorly flawed

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines there are portions of the registry that are higher protected. I only know because they made it 2 times harder to shut off the holes :-)

DemCodeLines

IT SAYS "REPAIRING DISK ERRORS. THIS MIGHT TAKE OVER AN HOUR TO COMPLETE"!!!!!!

Bob

@DemCodeLines You do realise the registry has permissions (ACLs) much like the filesystem itself?

Psycogeek

4:03 AM

@DemCodeLines did it also say "after two hours it might also have destroyed the data that was originally one it, trying to fix it" ?

DemCodeLines

So after exactly 31 minutes, it changes the status

No and I hope it doesn't do that.

the hard disk light is constantly blinking

And now the screen's black

computer restarts...

Windows boots

continues to boot...

YOUR PC RAN INTO A PROBLEM...

Preparing automatic repair

WHAT THE HECK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines I can get it to do that :-) because I know what i did to hose 1/2 a raid0 drive. I am no less glad that the utilities exist, but man can they f--- up if they do not know what is going on. Maybe we can find an exploit for that :-)

@DemCodeLines Another thing i am scared of in win8 the auto repair features. Listened to the (one of the) developers talk about it on a video for an hour. what those people do is sheer genius, how anyone could think it would all work right .

DemCodeLines

what are you scared about?

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines loosing more control

DemCodeLines

should i just force shut down it

it's gonna run at least half an hour

Psycogeek

4:17 AM

Many times i know for a fact what goes wrong, what happened, what i did to cause it, like overclocking and all. and often windows "helping" can kill me.

DemCodeLines

But Windows was trying to be nice!

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines I dont know what state it is in. there are times when even checkdsk itself (the program) can get in an endless loop, then come out of it with a perfect final fixed disk.

DemCodeLines

Yeah, Windows is pretty weird

Bob

@DemCodeLines Boot into the DVD again and bcdedit it

DemCodeLines

@Bob yeah, but what to bcdedit this time?

Bob

4:22 AM

@DemCodeLines look at the output first

DemCodeLines

Last time I used bcdedit to restore the original bcd settings.

Psycogeek

It is sounding more and more like there are accrued bad sectors, Are you going to tell us when you dropped it on its head ? :-)

DemCodeLines

I didn't drop it ;)

Told you, it suddenly went off

Maybe it was processing and writing something on the hard disk in the background and unfortunately powered off right when the hard disk was the at the position that is used by Windows for booting and all that got half written stuff over it, therefore corrupted.

Bob

@DemCodeLines The main goal is to verify it's pointing to the correct device

DemCodeLines

It's got to be, that's why the Windows logo comes up before the BSOD

Psycogeek

4:25 AM

someone was saying that 80% of all laptops die from drops, As If they should be dying from needing a tube replaced :-)

DemCodeLines

laptops have tubes?

oh wait

never mind

just hit refresh pc and selected win 8.1 as the option. let's see what happens

Psycogeek

That's real progress. If my computer had to have 1 million of those :-)

DemCodeLines

what the heck is that supposed to be?

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines a transister or a diode, from a few years ago.

DemCodeLines

Well, it's currently on a blue blank screen for longer than it used to be when it would say that the drive is locked, so let's hope something goods happens.

So apparently Refreshing the PC uninstalls all desktop apps

A MOUSE CURSOR APPEARED!

"A wild mouse cursor appeared. Throw your pokeball to catch it"

Journeyman Geek

4:42 AM

Its a tube. An internet is a series of tubes

2

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines Weird even a Lapped install (to install on top of) usually does not remove things. so you lost all your installs anyway?

Bob

@JourneymanGeek Welcome back!

DemCodeLines

Yeah, lol. All the desktop apps leave anyways, luckily the files and folders stay

Bob

You found an internet connection?

DemCodeLines

Although, iirc, it gives you a list of desktop applications that it removed, so I guess I'll go back and re-install them

DemCodeLines

4:57 AM

It's be half an hour now...

Journeyman Geek

@bob XD. For a bit. I'm on my phone, over WiFi

DemCodeLines

"The drive where Windows is installed is locked. Unlock the drive and try again." you've got to be kidding me.

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines I dont suppose you got a eye on the bad sectors yet? Because it would have been good to know the data number of how many sector reallocations (if any) , then to see if it changes.

DemCodeLines

@Bob It's same like it was earlier.

allquixotic

gah... I modded some cheat parts in Kerbal Space Program and every time I get close to bringing myself into an orbit, it crashes to desktop >_<

Bob

5:05 AM

@allquixotic That's what you get for cheating!

:P

DemCodeLines

@Psycogeek what do you mean?

Bob

@DemCodeLines Try chkdsk on both the boot and OS partitions.

Oh yea, and try checking the SMART data too, as @Psycogeek said.

Check the SMART data first.

DemCodeLines

How do you do that?

I think I asked earlier too, but I really don't remember

Bob

...I told you a couple hours ago.

DemCodeLines

..yeah..

Bob

5:07 AM

You have a linux livecd? Boot it, install smartmontools, run smartctl

DemCodeLines

what will that tell though?

Bob

...

4 mins ago, by Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines I dont suppose you got a eye on the bad sectors yet? Because it would have been good to know the data number of how many sector reallocations (if any) , then to see if it changes.

Wasabi Fan

5:23 AM

I'm looking at this project I found on Github: github.com/BmanDesignsCanada/LiSpeak. I'm trying to set it up to test it, but I'm kind of stuck; any idea what the third point in the 'How to Install' section means?

Bob

@WasabiFan Basically, you launch it by executing hotkey

You'll want to set up a keyboard shortcut so hotkey is launched whenever you press the shortcut.

How you set it up depends which OS (more specifically, which desktop environment) you're using.

e.g.:

!!google ubuntu keyboard shortcut

ChatBot John Cavil

@Bob help.ubuntu.com/community/KeyboardShortcuts ; askubuntu.com/questions/28086/… ; askubuntu.com/questions/1242/…

Bob

!!google kde add keyboard shortcut

ChatBot John Cavil

@Bob forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=110891 ; userbase.kde.org/System_Settings/Shortcuts_and_Gestures ; maketecheasier.com/configure-custom-shortcuts-in-kde

Bob

Just search for something like that.

Wasabi Fan

5:27 AM

Oh; wow. Thanks! :) I was imagining having to add something to that hotkey file... My head just about exploded. Obviously, I don't have much experience with Linux systems...

Psycogeek

7:07 AM

""The Screen Brightness changes automatically, when the SCREEN CONTENT changes. That is, if i change from a bright thing (like my desktop background) to a dark thing (like the default theme of Sublime Text), the screen will get dimmed gradually to be darker overall. You can notice, because it does so in little increments every half second."" Lol, That would be 100% opposite of what i would want to happen. Why not reduce the brightness a bit when it is a stark white pages instead?

Bob

@Psycogeek Because true black is easier to achieve on LCD screens when you dim the backlight? *shrug*

Psycogeek

I was playing some game called black something, and the whole time the spookey dark 3D picture was even hard to see anything. I could imagine if my grafics driver goes to "help" that out by making it darker still.

Well at least I know it exists now. wonder if it is in the manuel i dont read :-) They have the auto picture modes in TVs and LED sceens, does the opposite, completly destroys a movie the way they change it up and down during it.

Go to somones house and they have the Aspect switched all wrong (fat or thin people) and that auto stuff turned on. It drive me up the wall, heck they dont even notice. Often the same people who have a 52" $1500 tv there, with a horrible picture :-)

Psycogeek

9:35 AM

looks like spam superuser.com/a/744147/98855

Psycogeek

9:48 AM

^ gone now.

Bob

10:58 AM

Uhm.

@allquixotic Yet another wifi performance claim that's not going to be near real-world: bgr.com/2014/04/16/10gbps-wifi-2015-launch

Guess it depends on how well they can get the beamforming to work.

Boris_yo

12:20 PM

@Psycogeek This:

18 hours ago, by Boris_yo

After passing Nexus 4 to lab and returned it today, the tech told me all he had to do is disassemble and assemble phone to fix lack of vibration feature.

However I am usually meticulous, strict and suspicious etc. so I stayed another 30 minutes to test functionality while using phone with factory defaults. 20 minutes after, what do you know - vibration disappeared.

I told the tech to check, he did what he did previously and vibration worked again. He told me to bring device to lab so they can do thorough testing as it seems the problem is complex here (you know those hard to reproduce thi…

allquixotic

12:35 PM

@Bob maybe with "10 Gbps" transceivers we might finally see true 1 Gbps throughput though, which would be nice

in the real world, I mean

is it going to be faster than MIMO 802.11ac that we have now? most likely

Bob

@allquixotic What can ac reach?

I never got the chance to try.

My only ac device is my phone.

allquixotic

@Bob theoretically? 1.3 Gbps with enough MIMO antennas, but nobody ever gets that level of performance in a real environment

I would be very skeptical to hear that anyone's hit against or broken the 1 Gbps barrier in a non-laboratory situation

typically 802.11ac can expect like 300-400 Mbps

Bob

@allquixotic Even then, no word on latency (especially with interference).

HackToHell

1:40 PM

Is education in America that expensive ?

Hennes

Hi all

Hennes

2:02 PM

@allquixotic We could try to run the antenna wire from one device to the other devices antenna input. ;-)

allquixotic

@Hennes solid contact? wait... that makes it kind of ethernet-y! :P

jokerdino

2:49 PM

@HackToHell quite a bit yeah.

HackToHell

@jokerdino Education in India is comparatively very cheap (and worthless ?? )

jokerdino

cheap mostly yes. worthless? possibly too.

allquixotic

@HackToHell just because it's cheap doesn't mean it's worthless... US education is expensive because the cost of living in the US is insanely high unless you live in the middle of nowhere

jokerdino

but remember, we still have some bright minds who just outclass the majority.

allquixotic

if you want to live cheap you have to have like 1/3rd of an acre of land in the middle of a corn field 50 miles from civilization :)

jokerdino

2:54 PM

and no parteh!

HackToHell

@allquixotic Pretty much every single college here is in the middle of nowhere

My college is 12km from my city border

Bob

@allquixotic More reasons than that.

allquixotic

@HackToHell 12 km? that's not in the middle of nowhere :P

that's like... a hop skip and a jump

Bob

Cost of living in Aus is arguably higher than most areas of the US. But our Uni costs are nowhere near as high.

allquixotic

people who live rural in the US live like 100+ km from the nearest person

jokerdino

2:57 PM

In US, the tuition fees are jack high and you need books that are just priced unacceptably high. You can probably get cheaper international editions of the same book.

HackToHell

@allquixotic Bunking classes and getting to somewhere habitable is hard

allquixotic

@Bob well, yeah -- but textbook authors and people who sell "IT" to universities and the university execs all continue to gouge everyone and raise tuition as fast as humanly possible

Bob

@allquixotic And that's something that should be better regulated.

But there's always those willing to pay (and go into debt) for higher education.

jokerdino

and don't forget the super high interest rates on student loans

Bob

And as long as people are willing to pay...

allquixotic

2:58 PM

@Bob they set caps on how fast tuition can increase in many states in the US, but the universities continue to increase tuition as fast as the cap will allow year over year, and keep lobbying the government to let them increase it faster

they don't set caps on the private institutions, but they do set caps for public (government-funded) universities

jokerdino

and extravagant living of students?

Bob

@allquixotic :\

allquixotic

@jokerdino most students don't live "extravagantly" at all -- they eat cheap food, can't afford to buy or own anything, and spend what little discretionary money they have on booze because they're so stressed out from the high expectations that they need to relax

@Bob by the time I'm 35, tuition will be like 3x higher for someone to start their degree and graduate in 4 years at that time, as it cost me a couple years ago

jokerdino

@allquixotic that is a scary picture

allquixotic

by the time I'm 70 it'll probably cost a half a million dollars to graduate

not kidding

and salaries won't go up -- they won't, trust me

working professionals with a 4 year degree will still be making like $35k - $90k on average in 50 years, but execs will be making trillions with a T instead of billions with a B, and cars and universities and houses will all cost 10x-100x more

the future of the US is indentured servitude by debt, I'm afraid

jokerdino

3:02 PM

isn't that how the house loan bubble formed?

allquixotic

you can't afford to exist; therefore they own you and everything you do, and if you don't work as long as they tell you, you get thrown in jail

HackToHell

And you guys don't have proper medical stuff.

Bob

For IT-related courses as a gov-assisted student, I can only be charged $8.5k per year by my uni. The higher tier, for law/commerce/medicine related courses, is capped at $10k. And that's all covered by a deferred interest-free (CPI-indexed) loan until I make over a certain amount.

allquixotic

heh, don't even get me started on medical costs

it'll cost a million bucks to get treatment for a broken arm in a couple years (within my lifetime)

want a gauze pad? that'll be $100k

want an antibiotic? $200k

HackToHell

My first year tuition fee is 1650$

allquixotic

3:04 PM

@Bob here, they don't cap absolute cost; they cap the rate of increase

HackToHell

8.5k$ is a lot

jokerdino

it probably costs like $2k for my 3 year arts course :P

Bob

@allquixotic They increase those max contribution charges every year - I'm not sure what the formula is, but it's quite reasonable.

HackToHell

@jokerdino o_0

allquixotic

tuition at the university I went to is $9.1k for in-state students (people who have been living here a long time) in 2014

Bob

3:06 PM

@HackToHell Depends on median income and general cost of living.

allquixotic

and that's considered low

private institutions are more than double, and if you go to a public institution outside your home state, it's more than double

Bob

As far as uni fees go, at least compared to the US, it's quite a low ratio.

allquixotic

annual tuition at the same university (JUST TUITION!) for out-of-state students is $28.3k

as far as getting an okayish 4-year degree at the lowest cost possible, a public university is pretty much it -- it's high compared to the rest of the world, but if you do anything else besides in-state public, you're going to walk away with a mortgage that you may never even be able to afford to repay

Hennes

The tuition for dutch universities (in 1991) was about 2000 guilders (I guess about US $800 at the exchange rate in that time.)

Bob

@allquixotic Yea, the one I quoted was for commonwealth-supported students. Pretty much, you have to go through a local high school (i.e. excludes international and older students).

allquixotic

3:10 PM

@Bob here, there is no such thing as "commonwealth-supported" students, except that there are several loans you can get (which you have to pay back....) at low interest rates from the gubmint, and then, for superior academic achievers, you can get a scholarship, but most people won't be doing that

HackToHell

Private institutions are costly here, they cost about 14-16k$.

allquixotic

@HackToHell HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Bob

It's... uh... $36k for one year in a COMP course for an international student at my uni O.O

allquixotic

I mean, I'm sorry, $16k for a private institution is less than half what they cost here

HackToHell

16k$ is not affordable for many here :P me included

Compared to the median income of my country, it's high

allquixotic

3:11 PM

@Bob heh. the reasoning with the in-state tuition is that you and your family have been paying taxes by living in the state for many years, so they cut the price by ... a LOT

that's pretty much the only break we get

Bob

@allquixotic Pretty much - commonwealth(government)-supported is the same deal.

> Melbourne University, a public university, owned a private university called Melbourne University Private from 1998 to 2005. The private university was not successful, losing A$20,000,000 over its lifetime.

> Torrens University Australia, part of the Laureate International Universities network, opened as Australia's third private university in 2012.

allquixotic

luckily for my state, I can't afford to move out because I don't make enough money, so I'm also paying taxes back into the state by working full-time now :P

Bob

Huh. Not really a thing here (private unis).

allquixotic

@Bob private unis are the most "prestigious" here (Harvard, etc) -- $38,891 per year (without room&board, living expenses, etc) for Harvard

Bob

@allquixotic Does that distinguish between local and non-local students?

allquixotic

3:14 PM

some public universities have middling to above-average prestige in certain fields; for instance, University of Maryland is somewhat prestigious in the areas of agriculture science, high-energy physics research, some areas on the frontier of pure mathematics, and computer science education

Bob

If not - then that's in the same ballpark as an international student at UNSW o.O I'm surprised anyone would come here.

allquixotic

but the real power players are private unis

HackToHell

@allquixotic here, IITs beat all private UNIs :D

allquixotic

@Bob I don't think private institutions distinguish between local and non-local students

Harvard is a private university

considering that Massachusetts tax payers do not pay Harvard University a dime (nor should they have to, since it's a private for-profit institution; you don't pay Microsoft taxes for living in Seattle, WA either!), it would make no sense for Harvard to give Massachusetts residents any discount.

Boris_yo

3:46 PM

Wouldn't it be nice to work part-time and be paid full time? I think world would be happier place to live in.

Bob

@Boris_yo What on earth is that supposed to mean?

Bob

3:58 PM

@allquixotic You are known in the SF chatroom as "some SU user" :P

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