The Upper Room

12:04 AM

@anonymouswho no good theologians I know sum it up as unknowable. If you have some to reference please do. But otherwise you are just arguing against a made up understanding of made up theologians. Greek philosophers maybe did but that's hardly relevant. The irony is, they were using these terms for the express purpose of knowing and describing God in a way they could better use to communicate and distinguish

Joshua

12:21 AM

@anonymouswho That reads "Human minds can conceive of this trinity only a Triarchy" the writer would have been better off introducing that section with "no matter what Trinitarians say about what they believe, they are wrong they can't possibly understand it, so I will now continue to show how another definition (that is what I know they really believe regardless what they say) is wrong."

Again, the irony is that it is THAT position that is that the one promoting inability too understand or know.

KorvinStarmast

12:32 AM

@LeeWoofenden Thanks for answering, Lee. I'll take a good long look before comment, as I am outstde my comfort zone on this.

Lee Woofenden

1:13 AM

@Joshua No. It's just being realistic about the picture that's actually in the heads of trinitarians, no matter what they say with their mouths. See:

3

Q: Why do some Christian groups view the most common concept of God in Christianity (the Trinity) as a belief in three gods rather than in one God?

The vast bulk of Christian denominations, representing the overwhelming majority of Christians, subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity, which, boiled down to its essence, is "one God in three persons." Non-Christian monotheists such as Jews and Muslims commonly charge Christians with believing...

Joshua

1:42 AM

@LeeWoofenden Do most Christians have a very inadequate understanding of the Trinity? Yes. Do many Christians hold entirely false (not orthodox) understandings of the Trinity? Yes. Is teaching on this topic often ignored or done badly or done with a "well its a mystery you see" kind of attitude? Yes. Does any of the above have any bearing on whether there is a Trinity and whether it can be understood? No.

Lee Woofenden

2:19 AM

@Joshua The thing is, he's not talking about "a very inadequate understanding of the Trinity," if by "Trinity" you mean "Trinity of Persons." He's saying that such an idea of God is fundamentally polytheistic.

> At a conceptual level, the idea of a trinity of divine persons from eternity (meaning before the world was created) is a trinity of gods. This idea is impossible to wipe out just by orally confessing one God. (True Christianity #172)

He goes on to issue a challenge:

> I submit it as a challenge to everyone—both laity and clergy, laureled professors and doctors as well as consecrated bishops and archbishops, even cardinals robed in scarlet and in fact the Roman pope himself—that the Christian world nowadays thinks of no other Trinity except a trinity of gods. You should all examine yourselves and then speak on the basis of the images in your mind.

Abstract words do not constitute our conception of God. The picture we have in our mind does. And those who believe in a Trinity of Persons have in their mind a picture of three gods. That is polytheism.

Joshua

@LeeWoofenden Yeah....except I don't. Interesting how you're able to see that what's in my mind is different that what I'm communicating to you I see in my mind. And so yes, in my mind he IS talking about an inadequate understanding of the Trinity. An understanding of the Trinity that results in Tri-Theism is no longer the Trinity that I believe in, so it is therefore, logically, not a correct understanding of the Trinity that I believe in.

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@LeeWoofenden Somehow we always come back to your consistent refusal to cognitively comprehend, recognize and respect the integrity of what I say I believe. I say refusal since if I said inability that would make it a personal attack, even though then it implies you are doing it consciously, which really makes it worse. Take it however you like. After all, you literally just admitted to everyone that you think you know whats in my mind better than I do.

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Lee Woofenden

3:05 AM

@Joshua That's a lot of words. But I issue to you the same challenge Swedenborg issues. You cannot think of three persons of God without picturing three figures in your mind. And three figures is three gods.

curiousdannii

3:18 AM

@LeeWoofenden So Swedenborg misunderstands what the Doctrine is, rejects it based on that misunderstanding, and then claims the doctrine is illogical? Cool.

@LeeWoofenden Three figures is three persons sure, but not three gods.

@JNat This should really be posted to the site Meta...

Lee Woofenden

3:40 AM

@curiousdannii Nope. Swedenborg understands it for precisely what it really is. Those who believe in it picture the three persons as three figures. And three figures are three gods. Calling them "one God" with the lips does not erase the fact that they are actually pictured as three gods.

And using abstract language of their being "one in essence" or "one in substance" also does not erase the fact that they are actually pictured as three gods.

curiousdannii

4:02 AM

@LeeWoofenden You're doing your old thing where you tell everyone what they are thinking without listening to what they say. Please stop. It is offensive and only shows that you are not a good conversation partner.

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Lee Woofenden

4:18 AM

@curiousdannii Sorry you don't like my saying the practical truth of the matter.

anonymouswho

6:01 AM

@Joshua I was just showing Lee something I found when I Googled "God is a triarchy". I saw Swedenborg's name and thought Lee would find it interesting. I don't agree with Swedenborg's theology because I don't believe Yeshua is God. I just thought what he wrote was funny, not that trinitarians would agree to his logic.

However, it is the same logic that I agree with in my question [here](http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/53195/if-we-say-god-the-father-god-the-son-and-god-the-holy-spirit-can-we-say-god). Yes, the use of οὐσία as "substance" was introduced 500 years before Yeshua as a word to describe philosophical concepts. For thousands of years before Aristotle, the idea of God existing as a "divine substance" was not known. Neither the Hebrew Scriptures nor the NT know anything of "three persons of one substance". If this is what Yeshua came to tell the Jews, then He was rightly put to dea…

Eliseus autem locutus est

12:19 PM

2

Q: "To be" and a commentator on Aquinas

Father David Burrell, a well-known philosopher and theologian who has written on Thomas Aquinas, has discussed Aquinas' view of God, or at least of what could or could not be properly said about God. Aquinas (and Catholicism generally) believed that the nature of God was not distinct from the fac...

translation christianity infinitive aquinas

Lee Woofenden

4:09 PM

@anonymouswho Of course trinitarians won't agree with Swedenborg's logic. Swedenborg pointed out that they're actually thinking in terms of three gods, even if they insist verbally that they believe in one God. This dichotomy between what they're thinking and what they're saying has been inculcated into them ever since 325 AD, so it's come to be "settled truth" in their minds. But it is still polytheism with a thin verbal veneer of monotheism.

If I say, "I'm thinking of a red barn," and you ask me to draw it for you, and my drawing looks like this:

You'll likely say, "You're thinking of a blue barn, not a red barn." But if I then insist that it's actually a red barn, and it looks exactly like the barn I drew (and no, I'm not color blind), then what conclusion will you come to? Am I actually thinking of a red barn, or am I thinking of a blue barn?

It's the very same thing when trinitarians say they believe in one God, but they actually picture three figures in their mind. They may say they believe in one God, but the actual picture in their mind, which is their real belief, is of three figures, each of which is god. In plain language, they're thinking of, and believe in, three gods. Saying "one God" with the lips doesn't erase that fact.

The only reason this isn't blindingly obvious to everyone is that if you say something false and illogical long enough, it starts to appear true. That's what has happened with the Trinity of Persons over the 1,700 years since it became official church doctrine in Christianity.

Trinitarians don't like Swedenborg because he came along and pointed out this obvious fact.

Lee Woofenden

5:34 PM

@curiousdannii You don't deny that you picture three figures in your mind when you think of God. That is precisely what I am talking about. So I am listening to what you say. I'm simply describing the reality of what you yourself say is in your mind. It is not possible to think of the Trinity of Persons without mentally picturing three figures. And that mental picture is the real concept of God in trinitarianism, no matter what abstract things the lips say.

I did not grow up being taught to picture three figures but say "one God." When I picture God in my mind, I picture one figure, one Person, one God. I have never been trained and inculcated in the necessity of saying one thing with my lips and picturing another thing in my mind. If it weren't for that training and inculcation over many years and many centuries, it would, as I said above, be blindingly obvious to everyone that a Trinity of Persons is three gods, plain and simple.

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