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12:00 AM
A: Hand Picked Bible Applications

TRiGOne thing to remember is that a large part of any religion is cultural. And some of that is a response to outside culture. For example, no one reasonably could read the Bible and say that "God hates gay people" is the fundamental message of the text. Plenty of people have found that message in th...

I think the Mormons have revised that doctrine (handy, having living prophets).
Yes, they've at least changed it to a degree.
They may still call it the mark of cain, I'm not sure
But they used to not allow blacks to be elders, if I recall, but they do now.
How do you link to a previous revision of a post?
I'm not sure
As in, the original version of this question: christianity.stackexchange.com/q/2769/214
ah, click on the 'edited by' link
then there's a link icon to the left of the revision
12:04 AM
Ah! I hadn't seen that view before. Anyway, what I wanted to point you to was christianity.stackexchange.com/revisions/2769/1
ah, right... I saw that question
And the reasoning there (which I stripped out at @Caleb's request (and because it made sense to do so))?
I think the answer "It says absolutely nothing about what other people, who do not have such a wish, should do, nor does it say anything about how Christians should interact with such people." is somewhat short-sighted.
Yes, the specific verse quoted doesn't say anything about people who do not wish to inherit the Kingdom of God, etc, etc...
But other parts of scripture do make reference to how Christians ought to live in a world that is viewed as corrupt.
Q: Does "no part of this world" mean no involvement in politics?

TRiGJesus is reported as having said that his kingdom was "no part of this world", and further of assuring Pontius Pilate that his followers posed no risk to the secular authorities. Given that, should Christians be involved in politics? My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were par...

Taking the Bible as a whole, I think some useful guidelines can be found.
12:10 AM
As a Witness (not admitting to doubts at the time), that was the perspective I was coming from.
There are many people who think Christians should have no part in politics.
I'm a member of a Mennonite church, and although that view isn't held very strongly these days, early Mennonites refused to participate in politics, or hold office.
Really? There are no answers on that question expressing that view.
My view is that Christians ought to work, within the law, to influence positive change. In a democracy, that means voting for laws that I think are just.
The Mennonites are a group of Christian Anabaptist denominations named after the Frisian Menno Simons (1496-1561), who, through his writings, articulated and thereby formalized the teachings of earlier Swiss founders. The teachings of the Mennonites were founded on their belief in both the mission and ministry of Jesus Christ, which they held to with great conviction despite persecution by the various Roman Catholic and Protestant states. Rather than fight, the majority survived by fleeing to neighboring states where ruling families were tolerant of their radical belief in adult baptism....
This article talks about it some.
I don't hold that view, so I didn't feel like posting an answer :) I also don't know how much more I could add than the article itself talks about
I met a Mennonite lad once. We shared a cabin on a night train from Sophia to Belgrade. He was a fascinating guy.
The Amish still refuse to participate in politics
Most also don't use electricity, so we probably won't find any on this site to defend their views :)
12:16 AM
It was his first time outside the States, so he was doing a round-the-world trip by train and folding bike. His first language was Pennsylvanian Dutch. And he had little formal education, but had read up quite a bit on physics. Unlike most Mennonites, his family did use machinery, and in fact had a workshop for repairing stuff in their back yard as the family business. He was doing this holiday before going into third level education to study medicine.
(I was doing an InterRail trip at the time.)
Most Mennonites these days actually use all the modern conveniences... although in a community where your first language is Penn. Dutch, that's probably not true.
Most modern Mennonites appear by all estimates to be identical to an average joe
Amish framed my house.
Although most people's conception of Mennonites is quite different.
Are they still a "plain clothes" religion?
When I tell people I'm a Mennonite, most think I'm joking.
Because I drive a car, and use the Internet, and don't have a big scraggly beard
12:19 AM
Can I imagine you with a big scraggly beard?
Best not. It wouldn't do to get you mixed up with PZ Myers, would it?
that's the web site for the mennonite denomination I was a member of until about 5 years ago
there's some people on the front... I dont' think you'd ever think they were mennonites if you saw them dressed like that anywhere
tshirts, shorts, flip-flops...
and one guy with socks but no shoes...
... and a mohawk.
oh yeah, didn't see the mohawk... hehe
There is a bit of a tendency among Mennonites for "simple living"... which often means second-hand clothing, and old used cars... sometimes it translates to things that are visible.
12:23 AM
Maybe there's a difference between the mennonites with a website and those without?
But even most of the "hard core" Mennonites I know, you wouldn't be able to tell from your average Starbucks artsy person
@a_hardin: Sure... But those without are a small minority. They're also the ones that everyone notices, because they stand out.
@a_hardin: In much the same way many think that Muslims are terrorists... because the 5 that are got noticed.
Second hand clothing I grew up with. The big black sack came to the house, you tipped it out, took what you liked, added a few of your own clothes you didn't want any more, and passed it on to the next family.
@TRiG: Yup... I did that growing up, too (before my family even joined a Mennonite church :)
I still haven't prepared my Toastmasters talk.
@TRiG: And I haven't finished writing these unit tests...
12:26 AM
This is ridiculous. I was meant to give it the last meeting before they closed for the summer. I've had three months to prepare. And the meeting's tomorrow.
First meeting back after the break.
Not to keep you longer, but what exactly is Toastmasters?
My second speech in the club. I only joined it because I kept griping about my lack of a social life after that.
It's a public speaking club.
sounds... interesting...
12:27 AM
Do you have a topic, yet?
what are you speaking on?
You're assigned a speech, and given things to work on (inspire people, persuade people, use illustrations, whatever), but you pick the topic yourself. For my second speech, I've picked Nicaraguan Sign Language (which is more interesting than you might imagine).
I hope it's more interesting than I would imagine :)
There's also "topics", where the Topicsmaster (a different person each meeting) will call on random people in the audience and get them to speak for two minutes on a subject with no preparation.
I used to do that in Forensics in high school
the 2-minute speech bit
12:30 AM
Some Toastmasters clubs are very professional, but my local one is more of a social evening. They're fun and interesting people.
It's a two part meeting, but really a three part:
1. Topics.
Then the coffee break.
2. Prepared speeches.
Then pop into the hotel bar and stay there the rest of the evening.
@Flimzy. Something's wrong here. We're not having an argument.
@TRiG: yes we are!
Q: Is Nicaraguan Sign Language the only language born from nothing?

TRiGMy interest in linguistics was sparked by John McWhorter's popular book The Power of Babel, which, in its section on creoles, includes a small piece on Nicaraguan Sign Language, which really sparked my imagination. According to that book, it's the only language which has been, in historical time...

Who does that sort of club generally attract? People trying to improve their speaking? People who like listening?
I can't read that... it's in private beta
But have you seen this one?
Planned and Constructed Languages

Proposed Q&A site for questions about auxiliary, constructed, planned, and artificial languages, including Esperanto, Na'vi, Klingon, Ido, Lojban, Sindarin, Láadan, Toki Pona, etc. Also field linguistics questions, such as how to document a new language.

Currently in commitment.

It might be related to your question
There can be a fair few businesspeople who want to improve their leadership and speaking skills. We have only one of those in Tullamore. We also have a couple of teachers, a Garda, and various others. A couple of healthcare people. An interior decorator. Me.
sounds fun
12:35 AM
There's someone in our club who's a psychic. We had one very public but friendly argument in the pub after a meeting once, with the whole bunch sitting round watching us.
Signed Languages are natural, not constructed.
(Though, yes, I am following that proposal too. It's interesting. I started learning Esperanto once.)
Your knowledge of language far exceeds mine...
How many languages do you speak?
and to what degree
I came for StackOverflow. I stay for English.SE. It's definitely the place I spend most of my time here.
English is my only fluent language. I was taught Irish (badly) and French (quite well) in school, along with a year of Italian.
My mother is a qualified Irish Sign Language interpreter (she went to college after I'd graduated), and I've learned a little of that (and also read some of her linguistics textbooks).
how different are the different language sign languages?
Here's something I wrote.
like irish and american sign languages
is that a question for linguistics?
12:41 AM
@a_hardin Most signed languages are entirely unrelated to the geographically overlapping spoken languages. Most European signed languages, and ASL, are derived from Old French Sign Language.
Yes, I think that would be a good question on Linguistics.SE.
The spatial grammar of signed languages is unlike anything in a spoken language. They're completely different animals.
A few months ago I got to watch a friend who knows American sign language speak with a deaf mexican who spoke mexican sign language (??)
it was interesting
It was a bit like watching my friend who speaks Afrikaans speak to a guy who speaks Dutch.
I wrote a pub quiz once, and one of the questions was, Auslan is a language native to which country?
a lot of similarities... but also a lot of circumlocution going on ;)
According to Wikipedia, ASL is used in parts of Mexico. I wouldn't be surprised if ASL and Mexican Sign Language are closer than British and Irish SL.
I think they resorted to spelling many words... as the alphabets were very similar
of course that requires a common knowledge of either english or spanish
12:45 AM
Nicaraguan Sign Language (ISN; ) is a signed language spontaneously developed by deaf children in a number of schools in western Nicaragua in the 1970s and 1980s. It is of particular interest to the linguists who study it, because it offers a unique opportunity to study what they believe to be the birth of a new language. History Before the 1970s, there was no deaf community in Nicaragua. Deaf people were largely isolated from each other, and used simple home sign systems and gesture ('mímicas') to communicate with their families and friends. The conditions necessary for a language to a...
Fingerspelling is the one bit of Irish Sign Language I'm good at.
I've forgotten almost everything else.
Of course, the Irish "g" handshape is the same as the American "h" handshape.
I only know a few gang signs, and the 'bird' in sign language...
I'm not even very good at waving hello :(
BSL, unusually, has a two-handed alphabet.
@Flimzy. Gang signs?
yeah, stuff like this:
Ooh! I've just been e-mailed the meeting schedule, and I'm not on it.
OOO! Sign languages!
12:56 AM
oh goody... you can procrastinate longer! :)
Well, I'd like to be a procrastinator, but I never get around to it.
I'm actually deaf myself and I learned ASL over the last two years, with most of the learning being this last summer.
I think I'll start an area51 proposal for SO in ASL!
@Flimzy this is always a good thing
12:57 AM
Not an original joke, I hasten to add.
I'm sure it's not :)
@ElendiaStarman, did you ever learn to write ASL?
I. Need. To. Focus.
@TRiG I can kinda read written ASL. Of course, it depends on the writing method. :P
I'd like to get a round tuit.
12:59 AM
Like...there's one popular one named SignWriting, and then there are other older, more obscure ways.
@ElendiaStarman. I can sort of get my head around Sutton SignWriting. I wouldn't have a clue with the less iconic methods.
@TRiG Hah, Sutton. I can't read that at all. :P
@TRiG Wait. I meant that I can't read Stokoe Notation. I can definitely read Sutton SignWriting. :P
Yeah. My mother was very good and lugged the Dictionary of BSL back home from the college library a few times when I was writing that article. Stokoe is weird.
1:04 AM
@TRiG Wait, you wrote that article?
Wow. Nice article!
See "Written and researched by" in the sidebar.
Veeerryy nice...
h2g2 is a wonderful site for writing. It gives authors ownership, unlike Wikipedia. That's my article. There's also a very active community. (I could say that it was partly conversations I had there that led me to atheism.)
1:09 AM
How long have you been an atheist?
Are you deaf or hearing impaired, @TRiG? Or just interested in the linguistics?
@Flimzy. Mainly the linguistics. As I said, my mother is an interpreter. And when I was a Witness I knew a few Deaf people.
@TRiG: What do you do professionally? Or are you in school?
1:14 AM
I build websites.
(With a degree in chemistry. But I couldn't get a job there, and somehow ended up in PHP.) You?
hehe... I do software development.
Which touches on some web stuff, but I really hate that part :)
mostly in perl
bits of PHP, C, python, Javascript, etc
Do you use PHP for non-web work? I know it's possible, but rare.
I avoid PHP whenever possible... but we still have one legacy software package in particular that's written in PHP, and we have to update it occasionally
1:17 AM
I really must learn something other than PHP. It would be good for me.
@ElendiaStarman. You say you liked that article. Do you agree with the reasoning in it?
@Flimzy. I'm not really sure how long I've been an atheist. Quite a while. I wrote bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/F1749279?thread=6992633 in 2009, and I'd already been out for a while then.
@TRiG Pretty much, yeah.
I had actually never thought about that before; Jesus healing a deaf man as if the deafness was an "illness".
I came across it in one of my mother's Deaf Culture books when she was studying.
time for me to go have a social life
@Flimzy. A social life? What I need is sleep.
It's 2:30.
Not that this is completely non-social... but I thik it would do me good to see some other humans in person.
it's 8:30pm here... I'm supposed to meet a friend in half an hour
1:31 AM
@TRiG Lol. I'm quite sure that this doesn't apply literally to those who can't hear. :P
Is this the "real life" of which I sometimes hear rumours, @Flimzy?
@ElendiaStarman. You'd be surprised. Augustine taught that it did.
@TRiG ...well.
In the one and only time I've ever trolled, I started a thread on a Christian messageboard with that premise. I was told I was taking the Bible "too literally", which seemed odd to me. Surely it's taking the Bible out of context.
@TRiG: Yeah, the glimpses I've seen of this "real life" thus far have proven quite promising, so I thought I'd give it another shot tonight.
But I suppose fundies don't do context, do they?
@Flimzy, Enjoy!
1:35 AM
@Flimzy Seeya! :)
1:54 AM
Goodnight all!
G'night @TRiG! :)
See you all sometime.
I won't be around until perhaps Friday evening, unless I visit the site in work.
More likely, Monday evening.
1 hour later…
3:12 AM
Hello there @HedgeMage! :D
Hi, @ElendiaStarman
how's it going?
@HedgeMage Going pretty well.
Moderation is rather time-consuming, but then again, I knew that going into this. :P
What brings you here to C.SE's chat?
3:26 AM
@HedgeMage hey
Just peeking in :)
How are you, @waxeagle?
@HedgeMage doing all right.
glad for 5 mods here instead of 3
also little one is 3 tomorrow...gosh they grow up fast
hehe :)
They do... you blink and they're going off to school.
@HedgeMage yeah seriously.
5 hours later…
8:14 AM
hey, I was very astonished that christianity.stackexchange.com/users/592/neil-meyer got suspended... any idea why? I wouldn't have expected that from him
4 hours later…
12:16 PM
@dancek basically, consistently low quality contributions and ignoring comments asking him to improve them.
and an incredibly high volume of them
@waxeagle yeah, eight months have gone by very quickly for me
but a sick infant is a very very sad and scary thing
@CRoss Amen.
@CRoss amen to that.
yeah, my little girl has been running a fever for the past several days
it wouldn't make me blink in an adult, but ...
@CRoss yuck. I feel your pain.
12:28 PM
@CRoss Yeah, that's nerve wracking.
so, how goes Christianity these days?
I've been too busy with work to check on y'all much
saw y'all got mods though
congrats to everyone
@CRoss thanks. Not too bad, we seem to have a couple of new users that are making solid contributions, question quality is still hit or miss...
@waxeagle that's always the case with something like this
We're still hammering out some of the basic questions occasionally, but I think the questions overall are improving. Also, they seem to be slowing down.
I saw the guardian angel question and it made me think of a recent quote from facebook
12:33 PM
@CRoss its been really encouraging to click on a time stamp from a low rep user and see a quality contribution instead of a troll...
> An angel is not a little chubby fat kid. When someone saw an angel in the bible they were either dead or wanted to pee in their pants.
@waxeagle indeed
@CRoss nice
12:48 PM
I bet if an angel came down loads of people would freak out, think it's a nephilim and try to kill it
morning all
@DTest good morning
@CiscoIPPhone likely if they spent any measurable time here as visible creatures they would be accepted by a very few and rejected by a great many (much like Jesus was)
1:42 PM
Hmm. Ran out of votes at 10.5 hours before UTC... -_-
1:59 PM
@ElendiaStarman lol I haven't even exercised my franchise today...
2:16 PM
Q: Summa style formatting

Peter TurnerThis is kind of out there, and more of a long term project for when/if the site gets out of beta and I'd be more than willing to help out with the programming. What I'd like to see is the ability to make questions in the style of St. Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theologica. The reasoning behind this...

2:37 PM
Q: Comment Deletion

TRiGIs it just my imagination, or are comments deleted on this site far more zealously than they are on others in the SE network? I participate quite a lot on English L&U and SO, and have also posted a little at Jewish L&L. I don't think I've ever seen as many deleted comments (sometimes maki...

3:22 PM
"How is this not true" type questions come off as flame-bait. How is this not true?
@DTest ?
Q: Are scientific findings a test to Christians Faith?

Jonathon ByrdThe bible is very clear, God created the Heavens and the Earth. It also tells us a complete and precise story about the first week of creation. It's also obvious that scientists like Richard Dawkins, despise God and tell about how they want to destroy religion. Carbon dating (as well as others)...

just seems a bit argumentative from the wording
@DTest it definitely is.
I will see if he will correct
"How is this not true?" is only asking for answers from one side
I'm also thinking it's speculative. How can we answer factually that science is a test from God? except that 'all things are tests from God'.
3:27 PM
that being said, i'm going to answer it :)
@ahardin hah, ok!
I do think the question could be worded to be less flame-baitish
so the discipline badge "Deleted own post with score of 3 or higher." in what cases would you want to delete a post with 3 or more votes?
@DTest a better answer, an incorrect answer that got 3 votes...etc
a question that you though better of even though it was upvoted
does it work on questions?
@waxeagle beat me to it
3:34 PM
@DTest yup, although they can't have an upvoted answer
dang. i've got one on DBA that I want to toss out, but has upvoted answers
@DTest you can try, but I'm pretty sure thats a no-go
you're right...had to be flagged for moderator attention
3:51 PM
Q: Are scientific findings a test to Christians Faith?

Jonathon ByrdThe bible is very clear, God created the Heavens and the Earth. It also tells us a complete and precise story about the first week of creation. Carbon dating (as well as others) suggest that the earth is millions of years old and many Christians accept this premise over the statements made in th...

made an attempt to fix
ok, just gutted it a bit more
aww... now i have to fix my answer :)
i like it @waxeagle
@DTest thanks
It seems like he's saying, "I believe things which are obviously untrue. Doesn't this make me wonderful?"
I deleted my christian artist question, if anyone thinks it'd be worth trying to straighten up I can try.
otherwise it's not a big deal to me
4:00 PM
@a_hardin its an interseting question, but I think the answer has to end up being "Look at the publisher"...
@ahardin i didn't get a chance to look at it...oh well
Could this question have a better title?
Q: What about unborn babies?

Software MonkeyIf we accept that unborn babies are human beings and not merely a non-human organism, and further we require baptism as a prerequisite for salvation (using it as justification for infant baptism)... What happens to an unborn baby which never experiences live birth, and clearly can't have been ba...

yeah it could
@a_hardin I would say, Yes, it could have a better title. The title question seems to presume previous context. If I walked up to someone on the street and said "What about unborn babies?" They'd be confused. ;)
@Richard and would likely slowly back away
4:08 PM
well, what about them?!?
"Maybe a dingo ate your baby"
@Richard. Another comment for you to delete: christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/2867/…
Q: Are scientific findings a test to Christians Faith?

Jonathon ByrdScience suggest that the earth is millions of years old and many Christians accept this premise. Instead of accepting that God created everything in six days, they accept the finding of scientists based on scientific evidence. I am a literal interpretation Christian and I have strong faith that ...

Actually, there appears to be another song called "The Good Book", so perhaps he wasn't thinking of Tim Minchin. Pity. I thought I'd found a fellow fan.
@TRiG You can just flag these. They'll be taken care of by the moderators.
@TRiG I like Tim Minchin... to a degree
4:49 PM
Hello all :)
@nitstorm howdy
@waxeagle: how's it going?
@nitstorm not too bad...
@waxeagle that's good :)
So what do we discuss something in specific here? or just a nice little hangout spot?
Scroll up. We discuss all sorts of wildly varying things in here. ;)
4:54 PM
@nitstorm mostly a hangout, but if you want o address specific topic feel free.
Although, admittedly, I've not seen sports discussed here.
@nitstorm As @Richard says, a lot of different things. :P
@Richard that can be fixed :)
Feel free to talk about specific questions you have or grievances.
@richard american football is not football.
4:55 PM
Or the weather (It's amazingly gorgeous out today.)
@waxeagle American Football iz da best sport!
@ElendiaStarman :)
@ElendiaStarman although I have a very special place in my heart for the world's sport as well
@waxeagle @Richard : cool ... will do....
4:57 PM
By the way, this answer should be upvoted more.
A: What should we put into the FAQ?

Robert CartainoThe first "bullet point" should read something like this: This site is to create a canon of knowledge ABOUT the subject of "Christianity." This is not a debate forum. Users do not expect to be challenged on their belief system, and questions asked under false pretense just to "make a point" o...

@waxeagle is it the same hole that God fills?
Q: Where does the concept of a "God-shaped hole" originate?

RichardThere's a concept that I heard used many times throughout my life in regards to idolatry. The idea is that inside each of us is a "God-shaped hole"--a place inside of our hearts that only God can fill. If we try to put anything else in there, it won't fit (meaning, it won't fill the need we hav...

@DTest lolz.
@elendiastarman I don't agree w/ the question! :)
@ElendiaStarman dubly upvoted.
@DTest -_-
4:58 PM
@ElendiaStarman Yeah, you're right.
I think the comments on this question need some clean up... but before I flag them as obsolete, I want a second opinion on whether my question is still too ambiguous/vague/offensive.
Q: Should Christians uphold unjust laws that are not overtly immoral?

FlimzyInspired by this question, I'm left wondering how Christians ought to respond to laws that are unjust, but not overtly immoral. I think most of us will agree that Christians ought to disregard laws that mandate immorality, or that prohibit morality. The cliche examples of the first would be law...

DJClayworth seems to have some serious beef with the question, even after I clarified it... are his concerns justified?
He also seems to be putting words into my mouth...
@Flimzy I think its fine, flag it and we will scrub it.

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