Greetings

@Caleb what's your expection from the end of the world? Bible talks about the fact that evil will end for ever, but does it make sense to you? What if I tell you and prove you that such a thing isn't achievable?

@Chris'ssis I'd be very interested in that proof, since the Christian apocalypse involves the omnipotent being controlling the universe cleansing the world with fire and sending the devil to hell forever.

@waxeagle OK, let's define what evil is from Christianity point of view, it's more than Devil, because major part of the people put an equal sign between Devil and evil. The evil is not a thing, it's more than that, it's from other class, not the class of things.

The Devil was an angel of light, right? Then what is evil? Let's define it first. So, try to define it and then go further.

evil is corruption of creation. Disobedience towards God, and ultimately, much like Dark is the absence of Light, Evil is the absence of Good (namely God).

it exists at this point in history (and all points past present and future), largely because God allows it to exist, and ultimately so that he will be glorified more greatly when it is finally defeated.

@waxeagle As long as we have that free will from our God we have the possibility to choose the good or the evil, right? Evil is to God, as it's the shadow to a man, because it appears due to its existence. In case of God, the opposite of the will of God is the evil way. As long as God exists, the evil exists, there is no way to make one to disappear.

@Chris'ssis free will is dicey. However, what I will say is that currently the inclination of the heart of man is towards Evil, and it is only by grace that we do anything good at all. however when we are fully sanctified every evil inclination will be removed. There will be no sin, not because we cannot but because we don't want to anymore

@waxeagle So, the evil will be out there for ever, there is no way to remove it as the bible suggests.

Adam and Eve were the last humans capable of doing good on their own. They failed because of outside corruption, they were tempted and fell. Every human born since, and who will be born until Christ comes has in his heart an evil inclination.

@Chris'ssis NO! it will be defeated!

@waxeagle You cannot remove an option, the option is not a thing.

@Chris'ssis I ask you, can God do evil?

@waxeagle Evil is a consequence of the existence of God. God defines it by its existence. Imagine one of the commands won't be in the bible, then what we call "evil" will look a bit different, right?

@waxeagle My point, the essencial point, is that evil is not a thing that one can remove or finish it somehow, it is an option that any being with free will might choose once. There is no way to put an end to it.

@Chris'ssis you're erring entirely in your view of free will

@waxeagle before continuing, my advice to you is to analyze deeply what I said for some days and see if I'm right or not.

What I already said cannot be analyzed in a few seconds, it requires some time, meditation.

@Chris'ssis what, in your opinion does Christ's death accomplish?

@waxeagle I know what the bible says, but I don't see how God is going to remove the evil since the evil is an option. That was also an option to Lucifer. At the beginning everything was perfect (whatever that "perfect" means) but the evil option was there all the time.

@Chris'ssis What does Christ's death accomplish?

@Chris'ssis aye, and it's important to note there is no salvation path for Lucifer

@waxeagle redemption, right?

@Chris'ssis of what?

@waxeagle of the true believers in God.

@Chris'ssis and?

@waxeagle Jesus?

@Chris'ssis ok, let's go farther back. Let's start in Genesis.

@Chris'ssis ok. Let's just ponder creation for a moment.

@waxeagle You stay away from the solution of God to remove the evil. OK

@waxeagle For the same reason Lucifer fell.

@Chris'ssis What fell when Adam and Eve ate the fruit?

What was cursed?

And what was the promise?

@Chris'ssis no. What was cursed?

go read it, and come back

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203

@waxeagle I might know the bible better than you. The bible says that they listened to the snake and ate the apple from the forbidden tree. God said not to touch that tree though. So, all gets reduced to disobedience.

@Chris'ssis You might. Many people do.

@Chris'ssis aye, they disobeyed. however, the question was. What was the curse, who was cursed?

@waxeagle I don't see the relevance of this. My point was to emphasize the evil cannot be removed, and both Lucifer and man were a victim of it.

@Chris'ssis because the story of the Bible is about the creation, fall and redemption of mankind. If you do not understand the fall, than you cannot understand the redemption.

@waxeagle But I'm talking about a different thing though, about the evil that cannot be removed without taking from us the free will.

@Chris'ssis Right, and part of redemption is the defeat of Evil

Even so, the evil remains there as a possibility, but we cannot fall anymore in he absence of the free will.

@waxeagle Evil cannot be defeted, there is no way to do that since it's like the shadow of God, it's determined by the existence of God.

@Chris'ssis Is your God that small?

Better question, is Evil still relevant if it has no power?

@waxeagle What do you mean? (I'm not very good at English in case this is an idiom)

@waxeagle The evil cannot be endowed with powers, the evil is just an option.

@waxeagle Is there a guarantee that no one will fall again if the evil will remain there for ever and the beings of God will always have free will?

Maybe. But the evil will remain there though with Devil in hell or not.

Query: Could Adam and Eve have sinned without an outside influence?

would they have?

Maybe as Lucifer did.

@Chris'ssis Remember that the tree was the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Would they have had any inclination to disobey had they not been tempted?

@Chris'ssis We don't know what caused Lucifer's fall, but I'd be cautious about applying the rules of Angels to men.

There is no redemption plan for Angels

@waxeagle Well, this is another point very hard to understand in bible. If they didn't eat from the three of the knowledge of Good and Evil why God punished them because they listened to the Devil? Isn't listening to the Devil an evil option? Isn't the disobedience to God an evil option?

@Chris'ssis listening alone is not. Else Jesus would have sinned. Doing what he tells you to do is.

@waxeagle Well, listening and doing then.

gotta run. trainig.

@waxeagle OK

@waxeagle Statement: Entirely off-topic, but you just reminded me of HK-47.

...meatbags...

@El'endiaStarman one of my favorite characters ever.