The Upper Room

12:39 AM

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Q: How can improve or What is wrong with my question about leprosy?

Here is my question, which has 1 dowvote and no answers: Some Jews seemed to think that lepersy was a punishment for sin, rather than a sin itself. This is most probably going to sound like a stupid question either because there is a specific verse or because there really seems to be no...

curiousdannii

4:17 AM

@LeeWoofenden Protestants and Catholics both believe in something they call "original sin" but mean different things by it. Actually there are a few protestant positions I think.

@TRiG God hating humanity is surely putting it too strongly.

@DanAndrews Which denominations actually teach that Satan controls hell?

Lee Woofenden

5:09 AM

@curiousdannii There may be variations, but it's the same theme: you're born guilty, and therefore your default destination is hell.

Bruce Alderman

5:27 AM

@curiousdannii " If you cry to God to pity you, he will be so far from pitying you in your doleful case, or showing you the least regard or favor, that instead of that he'll only tread you under foot: and though he will know that you can't bear the weight of omnipotence treading upon you, yet he won't regard that, but he will crush you under his feet without mercy; he'll crush out your blood, and make it fly, and it shall be sprinkled on his garments, so as to stain all his raiment.

"He will not only hate you, but he will have you in the utmost contempt; no place shall be thought fit for you, but under his feet, to be trodden down as the mire of the streets." -- Jonathan Edwards, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God

Compared to what Calvinists themselves actually say, "God hating humanity" is putting it pretty mildly.

curiousdannii

5:53 AM

@LeeWoofenden No, they don't go together. Most protestants may say that our destination is hell unless God intervenes, but many would completely reject the idea that we are born guilty.

@BruceAlderman I much prefer those lengthy impassioned descriptions than a flat and unqualified "God hates humanity".

Bruce Alderman

@curiousdannii How does that follow from what you just said? If a bland "God hates humanity" is too strong, isn't Edwards' vile shaming also too strong?

@curiousdannii And FWIW, the Calvinist version of original sin (total hereditary depravity) does affirm that we are born guilty.

curiousdannii

6:27 AM

@BruceAlderman I think the writing's purpose makes a big difference. "Some people believe that God should be loved; some people believe that God hates humanity. As far as I'm aware, only Calvinists believe both of these at once." is making an emotionally neutral doctrinal claim, and even though it's only one line in a chat, it's also intended to be somewhat comprehensive. TRiG of course knows that Calvinists also believe that God loves humanity, but he didn't need to qualify that statement.

Edwards on the other hand is making an impassioned plee, not trying to exhaustively teach the doctrines of God's emotions

Were you ask anyone like Edwards whether God showing us his utmost contempt is a faithful summary of God's entire disposition to us they would of course say no. I haven't read much Edwards at all, but I'm sure he's written about God's love as well. But the paragraphs you quoted wouldn't have been intended to give his readers the entirity of God's disposition, but to get his readers to take seriously God's real hatred

Now whether or not that hatred, if indeed it is real, means that God cannot also simultaneously really love humanity is a debated issue. Calvinists think it's possible, but many other branches of Christianity do not.

TRiG

8:32 AM

@LeeWoofenden You respect people's right to their beliefs. There's no call to respect the beliefs themselves.

@LeeWoofenden Catholic/CofI in the Republic; Presbyterian/Catholic in NI.

Sagar

9:05 AM

As we all know , Donation at sattvika place (having guarantee that our donation will get use for good cause ) is a good karma.

But what if we donate with the intension -

"Hey god, I am donating this as a donation is good karma , I am ready to accept whatever you give."

1. Does good karma get accumulate in this case?

2. Is this a kind of Rajasi but good karma?

3. Does doner will get good results through this?

TRiG

@Sagar Are you in the right place?

in Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya, Sep 26 '13 at 19:04, by TRiG

@JackDouglas Well, if you teach children about your sadistic hate-filled God as a warning, that's one thing. If you also tell them that this slavering monster should be loved, you're messing with their minds in very nasty ways.

Lee Woofenden

1:48 PM

@TRiG Good point. Though sometimes people's beliefs lead them to do things that are not at all worthy of respect. Then the line becomes rather fuzzy. Are we to respect people's right to believe that other races are inferior? If they act on that belief, it creates all manner of evil in society.

@TRiG I take it you're in the Republic? My point in asking was that my impression of southern Ireland is that historically there was not a great deal of Protestantism there--which is where you find the "happy clappy" churches you were mentioning.

Dan Andrews

@curiousdannii I'll search for documented examples of people believing that hell is a place that the devil rules and God either doesn't exist or is hands off (is less of a micro-manager?) It could just be Christian pop culture. I find Christianity unique in that way, people may hold beliefs of denominations which they don't belong or / and completely out side of Christianity. Something like... well.. the fact that people truly link Santa Claus with Christianity (that he has Christian ideals)

Lee Woofenden

@curiousdannii Which Protestant denominations reject the idea that we are born guilty? Can you provide links to their doctrinal statements on this subject? (I'm aware that many Christians do not actually believe what their churches teach.)

@curiousdannii If any part of God's disposition is as Edwards describes it in that sermon, then God is a primitive, bloodthirsty being. And if God is half and half, then God is either bipolar or schizophrenic.

Dan Andrews

@LeeWoofenden "I'm aware that many Christians do not actually believe what their churches teach" spot on. This is especially concerning when raising children as the parents send their children to Sunday school to learn beliefs and practices that they may not agree with or understand. It's as if some people believe that being part of a church is a part of being a good parent.

Lee Woofenden

@DanAndrews Churches are seen as instilling moral and spiritual values into children. And I do think that most of them fulfill that purpose to at least some extent.

@DanAndrews My point actually was that many people reject the harsher and more illogical and non-Biblical teachings of their denominations. For example, many Protestants do not actually believe in salvation by faith alone, even though that is the official doctrine of their church.

And many Christians believe that people immediately go to heaven and become angels after they die, even though their church's official doctrines state that this doesn't happen until after a future general resurrection and Last Judgment.

Dan Andrews

@LeeWoofenden I thought that angles were created as angles. Who believes that we morph into angles?

@LeeWoofenden agreed that they also believe we play harps, live on top of clouds, and don't have any type of special relationships (we love everyone like a bunch of hippies I guess :) ). This is the Christian pop culture I was referring to when I described hell as a place that the devil rules. I don't know if it's officially documented anywhere.

curiousdannii

2:09 PM

@LeeWoofenden God has far more capacity than us to be emotionally stable and well rounded (infinite capacity actually), not less

@LeeWoofenden There could be many nominal Christians who'd believe that, but I really doubt very many regularly attending Christians would. Well unless their churches never touched the Bible, which sadly some do

Dan Andrews

@curiousdannii It has been my experience that more and more churches are moving way from bringing a Bible to church. It is becoming a place to go see a concert on Sunday morning (praise band) and read a single passage that is projected on a wall. Which is sometimes taken out of context.

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curiousdannii

@DanAndrews Well in some places, but not everywhere, and there are lots of healthy growing Bible focused churches

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@LeeWoofenden I don't know, and it would be a hard topic to easily search for.

I believe that humans are conceived as corrupted sinful beings in a broken relationship with God, and we are that because of our relationship with Adam who is our representative head, so there's a very real sense in which we share his sin, but I don't believe we share his guilt.

Lee Woofenden

2:38 PM

@DanAndrews It has become a very popular belief among Christians. Probably more believe this than don't these days--though some may deny it when they call to mind their church's official doctrines on the subject. Here are a couple of relevant answers I posted:

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A: What is the biblical basis for humans becoming angels after they die?

This answer is from the perspective of the theology of Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772), and of the various denominations that accept his theology, commonly called "New Church" or "Swedenborgian" denominations. Swedenborg taught that there are no angels pre-created as a separate race, nor did any ...

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A: What is the source of the belief that the deceased become angels?

In Heaven: A History (1995: Yale University Press) the authors, Drs. Colleen McDannell and Bernhard Lang, state that Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772) had a pivotal role in bringing about a changed view of heaven, including the idea that angels are humans who have died and gone on to heaven, rather ...

@curiousdannii Which is precisely why I believe there is no actual hatred and anger in God. It may appear that way to us, but it is not the reality of God's emotional state.

@curiousdannii Or unless they actually read many of the things said in the New Testament about where people who have died are now:

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A: What is the Biblical basis for the belief that there are humans in heaven now?

There are no explicit statements in the Bible that any of the people mentioned in the question are now in heaven. The belief on the part of many Christians that they are now in heaven is based on reading key Bible passages about their death and their status after death in light of a more generali...

@curiousdannii Do we share his sin by birth, or do we share his sin by actually sinning ourselves?

@curiousdannii I would be surprised if any major Protestant denominations didn't have as part of their official doctrines that we are born guilty of sin. Unless, perhaps, some of the more mainline and liberal ones have reversed their previously held doctrine on the subject. It seems to me that the idea that we are born guilty of sin is central to Protestant formulations about man's inherent sinfulness and the necessity of salvation by faith alone.

Bruce Alderman

3:02 PM

@LeeWoofenden Ultimately, since all major Protestant denominations can trace their history back to Luther or Calvin, you're probably right. I think many of them have a more nuanced view today. My denomination doesn't teach we're born guilty of sin, but it does teach we are born with a bent toward sinning.

Lee Woofenden

3:31 PM

@BruceAlderman That's what Swedenborg taught. And it has vastly different implications than the idea that we are born guilty, which is the basic idea of Original Sin.

Enlightened Elisha

7:42 PM

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Q: Providing a prayer for others

As someone that is actively seeking to be a Buddhist, how does one show emotional support for others in time of need? Christians offer to pray for them if someone or some person is going through a difficult situation. For example, during 9/11 often leaders would pray for people and their nation...

christianity

TRiG

11:34 PM

Rev. Giles Fraser: Christian politicians won’t say it, but the Bible is clear: let the refugees in, every last one

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Lee Woofenden

11:46 PM

@TRiG I'm for letting 'em in. But if I were that author, I wouldn't be too keen to cite the Exodus as a salutary example. The Israelites sort of . . . conquered the land that they went to . . . .

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