The Upper Room

12:22 AM

I don't know why I thought it would be different on MSE compared to MSO. They still don't think outside of the SO litterbox.

David Stratton

3:39 AM

@fredsbend I got it. I'm not convinced that it's a "Christianity" question as phrased. Obviously, Satan is one figure in Christianity, but he figures into several other religions - Judaism, Islam, in some respects in a few others. It kills me to not reopen it, because I know the answer and would like to post it, but it's still not within scope IMO. I can't cast a reopen vote myself in good conscience.

Zoe

4:09 AM

@PaulVargas In my reply, I did say that if God knows that Alan will believe then He may send a person or intervene Himself. So duh I know the Holy Spirit is the one who convinces but like I said, the hypothesis can only work when God wills it at that point in time.

When God wills it, the forces go hand in hand so theres no point in bringing up the Holy Spirit. It's a given since the Holy Spirit is also God.

@fredsbend I dont think Alan will change his life drastically as well. But if Alan starts to believe in God, naybe Alan will also read the Bible once every two weeks of go to a church with his friend once every two weeks. Then with new knowledge, Alan may or may not thank God but Alan will learn new realities about why his life is the way it is.

Whatever Alan does from there is up to him. God has opened a door for him, it is up to him now.

@fredsbend There are many of the christians I know who already know because they have a personal relationship with God but they were broken in order to reach that stage. Faith, prayer life, obedience, dying to self, flow always in the Holy Spirit and asking and seeking God all the time, keep to the Bible and follow the right shepherd. Its also a timing of God thing.

Such Christians though, I think make up less than 10% of the Christians in Singapore.

@fredsbend I'm sure theres more factors in play here on reaching a relationship with God. Idk why you would feel timid and scared when you were a Christian. I too have also doubted whether things are of God or Satan or me. But it would be a long story to discuss and explain about Will of God or requirements to a relationship with God

@fredsbend I would love to chat with u privately, but if you have given up on God, Im sorry to hear that and Im sorry for ur experience. But I would like you to read the book of Joshua. Also, coincidentally enough, the sermon last night was about such a situation between you and me here :) I thank God for that.

fredsbend

6:24 AM

@DavidStratton There's a lot of overlap in many of the figures of those three religions, but those questions remain open. Christianity usually sticks to serpents and dragons for Satan, and as an Angel with horns, so I kind of see your point, but I don't know the answer. Was the depiction Christianly motivated? If yes, then I think you can reopen in good conscious because the answer will justify the question.

fredsbend

7:12 AM

@Zoe I had a good chat with Jack Douglas a while back

TRiG

12:26 PM

@DavidStratton However, I think the association of a goatlike figure with the devil is (a) common in Christian mythology, and (b) uncommon in other mythologies.

If we accept that, the question becomes whether Christian mythology (as opposed to theology) is on topic.

And we already have at least one question on Christian mythology:

12

Q: Who is Lillith?

The character Lilith, while not mentioned in the Bible, turns up in Christian mythology as Adam’s first wife. (She’s mentioned, for example, in CS Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia.) Where does this myth originate? And does any major Christian denomination teach the Lilith story as true?

genesis

With an accepted answer from one @DavidStratton. ;)

Paul Vargas

12:59 PM

@Zoe Do you remember the text of Scripture that supports your idea?

LCIII

1:58 PM

Oh man

this site is so perplexing to me

Cause like, Christianity is all about truth

but this site is all about facts

it's tough to balance, yknowmsayn?

Flimzy

hehe

We aren't really about Christianity, per se

We're about what Christian groups say about Christianity

Zoe

@PaulVargas You mean a verse that supports God sending people to do His will or God intervening to convert or save someone? Isn't the scripture all about that? In the case of Apostle Paul? Elijah to the widow? Disciples to the Jews and Gentiles?

Paul Vargas

2:33 PM

@Zoe I have the impression that such ideas have some Calvinist influence.

Zoe

3:01 PM

@PaulVargas Don't know who Calvinist is. But alot of truth is about real life experiences or revelations that fulfil scripture yet do not have the exact same scenario or reasons because we dont know God's true reason for doing something except that it was within His will and timing to do it

. I read alot of books from charismatic writers that emphasis on the application and fulfilment of scripture in real life, doing the will of God and the reality of spiritual warfare, blessings and bondage of curses.

And non-prosperity sermons :)

Flimzy

@Zoe Calvin was a famous theologian who formed what is now days called "Calvinist theology" and a particular way of looking at the scripture which many modern evangelicals follow.

@Zoe: It has a strong emphasis on predestination.

@Zoe: It's something I don't agree with, but there are others here who do.

Zoe

3:31 PM

@Flimzy I know who Calvin is (sort of) I read that he disagreed with alot of the reformation denominations. It seems he disagrees with a heck of alot of things.

@Flimzy The only predestination I agree with is this: God has a perfect plan and will for His believers, if only we would flow in the Spirit and obedience will we be able to know His calling for us, when He reveals.

@Flimzy Such a predestination is my interpretation of Ephesians 1 NKJV

Does Elisha speak?

0

Q: WHERE can we ask a truth or advice question?

I really don't know if this question belongs on this meta or stack exchange meta or Area 51. Suggestions appreciated. Anyways! I know that we can't handle the truth and we don't give pastoral advice on Christianity.SE. It just doesn't fit the model of this site, and I understand that. But I won...

feature-request pastoral-advice-questions

fredsbend

4:32 PM

@LCIII You've probably see this already:

20

Q: Newcomers: Be patient. You will get there if you follow our direction. Keep trying

To the newcomers: I am thrilled that you have come to this site. I am excited that you want to spend time contributing to this site, and even more so that you want to learn more about Christianity. The users like you make the content on this site and they are what make it fun. However, you may ...

discussion faq

Just in case.

I link to a lot of good meta posts there. You're probably more interested in that.

@TRiG You sure you think there's only just one? ;)

TRiG

@fredsbend At least one.

fredsbend

It was a joke about the whole thing being myth.

Flimzy

Every question about the flood and creation is a question about Christian mythology... in a strict sense, every question about Bible stories, including the resurrection of Jesus, is a question of mythology

I think what makes TRiG's example and the one about satan interesting is that they are about extra-Biblical Christian mythology

TRiG

@fredsbend ...

@Flimzy Mythology is, actually, a tricky word to define in this context.

Flimzy

Using this definition: "a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events." the entire OT was "mythology" to the Jews.

And most of the NT is also mythology to modern Christians

The second definition offered by Google would be a bit more controversially applied to Christianity "a widely held but false belief or idea."

Jasper Loy

4:41 PM

Are most users on Christianity SE Christians?

Zoe

@Flimzy As a teacher, I second that definition. That's always how I would explain the difference between a legend and a myth

@JasperLoy Define Christians haha

Jasper Loy

@Zoe They call themselves so?

Zoe

53

Q: Brothers, we are not Christians‼

I am a Christian. You say you are. But we are not.1 It seems that a lot of folks are having a hard time wrapping their heads around the scope of this site. While I respect the SE staff2 and have been impressed with the effort they have taken (and judgement they have shown) in nurturing this site...

discussion site-definition sensitive-topics

Matt Gutting

Hi :-)

Flimzy

@JasperLoy Many do. We have many atheists and agnostics, too, and several people who adhere to other religions.

Zoe

4:42 PM

@JasperLoy I'm sure we have more theologians and Bible enthusiast than we have Christians.

@Flimzy Yup

@MattGutting Hai.

Flimzy

@Zoe: I think which definition is correct depends on context. "Myth busters" is about busting "widely held but false beliefs or ideas" and not about busting "traditional stories concerning the early history of a people"

Zoe

@Flimzy How about a legend?

TRiG

@JasperLoy I'd say the bulk are Christians.

Flimzy

@Zoe: There's a lot of overlap between the first type of mythology and legends (and sometimes the second type of mythology as well)

TRiG

Apr 26 '12 at 23:31, by TRiG

@JasperLoy I would say the word Christian is context-dependent. In the context of a census report, or interreligious dialogue, or this site, a Christian is defined as anyone who considers zirself to be a Christian. That's a sensible definition in this context. In other contexts, different definitions make more sense.

^^ I'd say the bulk are Christian by that definition.

Jasper Loy

4:44 PM

@TRiG Yes, I think I got that definition from you!

Flimzy

@Zoe: I think most people get hung up on the idea that the Bible is myth because "it's true!!!" But the truth of a story has nothing to do with the definition (in this context) of a "myth." Likewise, "legends" can be historically true or false as well.

Zoe

@Flimzy It's impossible to distinguish between true or false historicity. Only right and wrong. Of course, by faith, the Bible is true.

Flimzy

@Zoe So it's impossible to know if Abraham Lincoln killed vampires?

Matt Gutting

@Zoe Depending on what you mean by "true", and what part of the Bible you're talking about and to whom.

Zoe

@Flimzy Yes. What if Ab killed all the vampires so there's no one to tell the story?

We can't prove nor disprove so.... It boils down to what sounds right and what your faith tells you

Flimzy

4:47 PM

@Zoe: You think it's impossible to know if the Holocaust occured?

Zoe

@Flimzy Well, if there are evidences, I'm sure it's possible to know. But for things as old as the Bible, I doubt it.

Jasper Loy

@Flimzy That depends on our faith of history texts.

Flimzy

@Zoe Well, you said it's impossible to know which history is true or false. And I'm trying to demonstrate that it most certainly is possible to tell which history is true or false, to a certain degree of accuracy, in many cases.

Matt Gutting

@JasperLoy And our faith in people who state that they were there?

Jasper Loy

@MattGutting Yes, something like that. Almost everything requires faith, except mathematics, lol.

Zoe

4:48 PM

@Flimzy It is possible to know if there are certain evidences. But I don't think people can prove the Bible except tell it's fulfilment from their own experience.

Flimzy

@Zoe: It may well be true that we cannot know exactly the moment at which Julius Cesar's left foot first touched the floor when getting out of bed on the day he died...

AJ Henderson

@Zoe I don't believe you said that

;)

Matt Gutting

@JasperLoy As a former math major I can tell you that mathematics requires faith :-D

Flimzy

@Zoe: But that doesn't mean we can't be as reasonably certain as anyone cares to be about the circumstances surrounding his death.

Zoe

@AJHenderson But you would believe my account said that :)

Jasper Loy

4:49 PM

@MattGutting Oh OK. I am not too sure about what I say, lol.

Flimzy

@Zoe History isn't about "proving" -- at least not in the same way that science and mathematics are.

Zoe

@Flimzy Of course, there are mechanics to believe something without it being proven to you. For the Bible, it's faith. For others, it's probably a mental acceptance that it is plausible and there are people who say it that way.

Flimzy

@Zoe I believe the Bible because the evidence suggests it is true. If I have to simply believe the Bible on "faith", then it's worthless to me.

Jasper Loy

Faith itself also needs a definition.

Zoe

I believe the things in the Bible happened. But if a strong atheist were to challenge me to prove it, I can't.

Paul Vargas

4:51 PM

@Flimzy Do you believe in the historical Jesus?

Flimzy

@PaulVargas Of course.

Zoe

I do know there are archaeological evidences of some things from the Bible :)

Jasper Loy

@PaulVargas I am not a Christian, but I believe he probably existed.

Flimzy

@PaulVargas: Most skeptical of Christianity believe in the historical Jesus, too.

TRiG

Oct 7 '12 at 21:54, by TRiG

@DavidStratton I have a short list of words I never use, because they mean different things to different people, and always lead to talking at cross purposes. One of them is faith.

Paul Vargas

4:52 PM

@Flimzy And why do you believe that?

Jasper Loy

@TRiG Wow, we should get married or something, lol.

Flimzy

@PaulVargas: Because the weight of historical evidence suggests it is true.

Paul Vargas

@JasperLoy Can I ask you something? - Why do you spend time in this site?

TRiG

@JasperLoy Heh.

Zoe

Does Jack ever come here?

Jasper Loy

4:53 PM

@PaulVargas You mean SE? I am not on Christianity though.

TRiG

@PaulVargas @JasperLoy is rarely here. I'm the one who hangs out here.

Aug 7 '13 at 21:19, by TRiG

@AffableGeek I think I've worked out at least part of the answer about why I spend so much time on religious sites: ye amuse me.

Jasper Loy

@Zoe Who is Jack?

Zoe

@JasperLoy Jack Douglas from BH

Jasper Loy

@Zoe I just noticed that you have been hanging out in this room.

Matt Gutting

@TRiG So kind of like why I spend so much time at notalwaysright.com?

Zoe

4:56 PM

@JasperLoy Yea I have. It's actually possible to have an intellectual discussion here.

Btw, can someone provide different definitons (short) of the Communion of Saints?

Jasper Loy

@Zoe I came because I am bored. It's nice to see what people are talking about.

Zoe

@JasperLoy Usually, at night, this place is more crowded. Prob due to time zones

Rest of the day, it's deaded.

Matt Gutting

@Zoe I can look based on Catholic definitions...

@Zoe The one time I can't get on :-(

Zoe

@MattGutting I know the Catholic, but I'd rather not follow that :P

Jasper Loy

I am actually an ex-Christian. I believed but no longer believe, something like that.

Zoe

4:57 PM

@MattGutting And it's 1am here

Matt Gutting

@Zoe Hmf. O well... ;-)

Paul Vargas

@JasperLoy What things do you believe? I mean things of religion.

Zoe

@MattGutting If you listen to Hillsong's "This I believe (The Creed)" I much rather prefer the general and sharing-ish aspect of the Apostles' Creed.

Jasper Loy

@PaulVargas Well, currently I don't really believe in any religion.

Zoe

@MattGutting The "Three in One" irks me though, it sounds like milo.

Jasper Loy

5:00 PM

@Zoe I doubt he knows what Milo is.

Matt Gutting

@JasperLoy I was just going to ask :-)

Zoe

@JasperLoy Or coffee

Jasper Loy

@MattGutting It is a drink.

El'endia Starman

Chat'splosion in 10 minutes!

Zoe

I mean, I was afraid I would offend but I just neeeeeed to say it.

Matt Gutting

5:01 PM

@JasperLoy OVALTINE :-)

Zoe

@MattGutting Almost

Ovaltine is more malty

Jasper Loy

@MattGutting I know that too.

El'endia Starman

I mean, very little activity for hours, and then I look away for 10 minutes...

Zoe

@El'endiaStarman Hah!

Matt Gutting

@El'endiaStarman Ninja Chatroom :-D

Jasper Loy

5:02 PM

Wait, there is another room for prayer requests right?

Zoe

@JasperLoy I have no idea there was such a room. What prayer request do you have?

Jasper Loy

@Zoe Not now, it's just that I think I saw such a room before...

Zoe

@JasperLoy Oh, I do not know about that.

Paul Vargas

@Zoe If that's your interpretation of predestination, how do you interpret the election and the adoption? - You may want to see Romans 8:28-30.

Jasper Loy

@Zoe I just checked. It seems to have vanished.

TRiG

5:06 PM

@Flimzy Somebody on this site got very het up because I mentioned that the character of Abraham in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus "plays the role of a myth".

Jasper Loy

@PaulVargas You look very stern in that photo.

Zoe

@PaulVargas Romans 8 also emphasizes heavily on believers being predestined. It also mentions that, whoever called was also predestined. Now, we would have to know the requirements to be called by God, and it still boils down to flowing in obedience and in the Spirit so that we yield ourselves. There of course those God foreknew from birth but freewill can delay such a blessing.

It would seem that, from my point of view, in order to be explicitly predestined by God, one has to be a first a believer and second to be called.

Paul Vargas

@JasperLoy You're very kind.

Matt Gutting

And here's the quiet room again :-)

Zoe

5:31 PM

@MattGutting It happens

LCIII

5:54 PM

@fredsbend Are you a Christian? Just wondering...

...

... or a satanist. Pick one.

:-|

:-D

Paul Vargas

@LCIII What about you? - Are you a Christian? Do you belong to some denomination?

LCIII

6:23 PM

@PaulVargas I'm a christian. I belong to a local church but we're non-denom. The reason I asked Fredsbend is because I thought I saw him say somewhere that he wasn't a believer. I just wanted to confirm it whaddddup

Zoe

@LCIII I read that as non-demons

Matt Gutting

@Zoe He's that too :-D

TRiG

Looks like there's more than one way to redefine words. ;)

Matt Gutting

@TRiG “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

Zoe

Is this Upper Room named after the one in Acts?

in English Language & Usage, 1 min ago, by Zoe

@Mitch The word "hyperōō" though, is rather special as it only appears 4 times and strictly in Acts. It means "Upper room or Upper chamber, upper part of the house". The upper room mentioned in Judges/Kings/Nehemiah and the Synoptic Gospels do not seem to have this word, though they were all translated as upper room in the NKJV.

fredsbend

6:35 PM

@TRiG The Muslim holiday of Ramadan where members fast for 28 days or so also uses the term "fast" loosely. Muslims are not allowed to eat during daylight hours. If it is dark outside, they can eat all they want.

Among other groups, including Christians, "fast" does not always mean "only water." There is a concept called a "Daniel fast," for example, where participants eat only vegetables and water, in an effort to increase their faith that God will sustain them on such a restrictive diet (never mind the fact that it is actually a very healthy diet, assuming you eat a wide variety and enough volume).

But this is a cavalier definition of "fast":

> We are asking the entire Body of Christ to join us for this feast – giving up physical food isn’t necessary – but feeding on the spiritual food provided is vital.

They've redefined a word that means "eating less food" to "eating more food". Total reversal.

El'endia Starman

@Zoe Yup!

fredsbend

Dern right!

sorry. "Yup" always makes me think of rednecks.

@LCIII I'd like to think my heart is on my sleeve. Which do you think?

Matt Gutting

@fredsbend I think it sounds like you could use surgery. Or at least let me get you some gauze to cover that.

fredsbend

@Flimzy Are you telling me Ol' Abe didn't slay the undead! My brain has just been rocked! Everything I thought was true is crashing down around me!

LCIII

@fredsbend I don't know. You "internet users" are all mysteries to me.

Zoe

6:44 PM

Do you guys think the Upper Room in Acts 20 was furnished well?

fredsbend

@LCIII Just another thing I strive for, especially in chat. Mission accomplished.

Zoe

I'm doing a little research on the upper rooms of the old and new testament.

fredsbend

@Zoe Depends on who they hired for the decorating.

Zoe

@fredsbend I'm comparing the different words used for upper room and the words that follow after or before. The synoptic Gospels of Mark and Luke use "anagaion" which also means upper room but is always followed by the word "furnished".

So, I guess I should ask why a different word was used for the Upper Room in Acts. It makes me think maybe it was poorly furnished and the word conveys that sort of meaning in context.

fredsbend

@Zoe The inner room that was behind the curtain in the temple is a model of the one in heaven. They had the ark, the show bread, and a few other things I can't quite remember. The Ark, was surely a site to see. Carved gopher wood plated with gold. Two cherubim adorning the top. As far as pictures or something on the wall, probably not.

Zoe

6:48 PM

@fredsbend I wont compare the Hebrew one since it is in a different language. However, the upper room in the Gospels of Mark and Luke has the same Greek word and is always followed or preceded by well furnished

Knowing that the meaning of the word is not the word itself but the way it is used, it makes me think that maybe The Upper Room in Acts was not well furnished :)

Though it is hard to know why the writer would use a different word, when they can mean the same thing. Maybe the difference really is in the state of furnishing, or not. Idk.

fredsbend

The two I think are supposed to contrast. The inner room in the temple, a truly holy place, and this upper room of inn with probably little more than a crappy bed and a table.

But they share one vital characteristic: The presence of God was there.

This is the first instance of how Christ changed how man can come to God.

Zoe

@fredsbend The thing is, why two different words that have a similar meaning?

fredsbend

The temple was no longer necessary. Any common person (not just men), can enter the presence of God, anyplace, anytime.

Zoe

Wait, I don't think we are on the same page here.

fredsbend

@Zoe That's a hermeneutics question. Not my strong suit.

@Zoe Maybe .... probably, not.

Zoe

6:54 PM

I'm not talking about the inner room of the temple.

fredsbend

Yes, I see that now.

Zoe

I'm essentially comparing the type of upper room in the Gospel VS the one in Acts

fredsbend

Same book, different pages.

@LCIII Here's how I feel about it. I'm still receptive to a creator God, but I'm no longer convinced that Christianity accurately describes him.

Reality is in constant conflict with the doctrines and promises of Christianity, and I'm tired of living in denial.

Zoe

Basically, "anagaion" in the Gospels but "hyperōō" in Acts (and only Acts). But "anagaion" is always preceded or followed by "well-furnished". So, for a writer to use two different words with a similar meaning, the difference has to be somewhere. To me, I think it is in the furnishing.

@fredsbend Yep, Christianity doesn't.

fredsbend

Please don't follow with a cliché.

Zoe

6:57 PM

I just think the choice of words is so interesting

@fredsbend What do you mean?

Matt Gutting

@fredsbend It's interesting that you feel that; apparently (and not surprisingly) you have a very different experience of reality than I do.

fredsbend

After that, I'm expecting something along the lines of Christianity is a religion but being a Christian is different.

@MattGutting My biggest problems are: 1) God does not seem real to me personally. I talk to my wife, whom I love dearly, but God won't do that for me. 2) The problem of evil.

Zoe

I used to view Christianity as a troublesome religion and the denominations as annoying and always at war with one another. This year though, I try hard to not call myself a Christian because I don't view it as a religion.

Matt Gutting

note to localhost: hurry up already; I'm tired of waiting. restarting apache in 10 seconds

fredsbend

@Zoe And that's the phrase leading up to the clichés.

Zoe

7:01 PM

@fredsbend I don't follow. Which phrase and what cliche? I'm new to this things.

Matt Gutting

@fredsbend (2) is a big one. A REALLY big one. Not sure what to say on that except that (because God does seem real to me personally, based on experience) I'm willing to accept that it'll work itself out in the end.

Zoe

brb

Matt Gutting

But I can understand why that isn't everyone's experience.

fredsbend

@Zoe I think Christianity has issue unique to it, just as other religions do as well, however, I think a good deal of them are good for the masses, especially people in hopeless conditions. Is it really any wonder that wealthier countries have less religions citizens?

@MattGutting My question to people like you, who say that God seems real to them is "How do you know your experiences are the Christian God?" I've actually never heard a satisfactory answer. People in every religion think they have real experiences with their god(s).

@Zoe "Christianity is a religion but being a Christian is not."

It's a cliché that splices hairs and redefines words.

Matt Gutting

@fredsbend Well, I don't know (although here we get into discussions of epistemology, and what it means to know something, and on what basis I can claim that I know any given thing). But in practice I can't come up with a simpler, more convincing explanation of who or what that experience might have been. Thus, by Occam's Razor, I'll go with the explanation that it was God.

fredsbend

7:06 PM

What they really mean is that there are people who are good at adhering to their religion's tenets and there are people who are bad at it.

@MattGutting But take the scenario where it was real, but say a lesser being than the Creator, assuming there is one. This lesser being is not omnipotent and may not have the power/ability to correct your wrong conclusions.

Take the other scenario where it's not real at all. It was a mind trick and you've convinced yourself that it happened differently (a common thing for the human mind to reorganize events to make sense of them, especially in light of trauma).

Now take the scenario where it was the omnipotent Creator. He doesn't bother to take the time to verify that it was indeed Him. For a God that wants the glory, He sure passes up a lot of opportunity to get some.

Matt Gutting

@fredsbend Either of those scenarios are possible. With respect to your first possibility: In this case I'd have to assume that there was not only the Creator God, but another being who would deliberately talk to me as a creator God would; that would be more complex than assuming there was only one such being. Thus, that seems to be cut by Occam's Razor.

@fredsbend This second scenario is certainly possible; but that criticism could be applied to any memory of mine, not just to this one. Were I to begin applying it everywhere, I would begin doubting all my experiences and memories. I don't think I can indiscriminately apply this; why should I apply it here in particular?

fredsbend

@MattGutting I think Occam's Razor is too quickly applied to things that no one knows are real or not. Occam's Razor is meant to be applied to things that we already know are real. Like in a crime scene, we can see evidence of one person, but not two, therefore, theories of two criminals working in tandem is unnecessarily over-complicating the theory.

Matt Gutting

@fredsbend As for the third scenario: I don't see God as "wanting the glory"; why would he here?

fredsbend

In this scenario, we don't even know if a being actually interacted with you at all.

@MattGutting Have you read the OT?

Filled with "I am the Lord your God and the world will know ...."

Which is another issue. The OT and the NT describe different gods, imo.

Matt Gutting

@fredsbend I know that I had a given experience; I can apply Occam's Razor to it, and draw conclusions about what sorts of things likely happened.

TRiG

7:16 PM

@MattGutting I remember having this conversation with my dad. I'm not at all sure that I ever did have any feeling of "experiencing God", even when I believed. And I'm not at all sure what such an experience would feel like.

fredsbend

@MattGutting If we actually want to apply the razor here, we should conclude that it all happened in your head, because we know for a fact that it has happened before.

TRiG

I told my dad that when I look at the world I just don't see God there, and apparently he was unable to get his head around that concept.

Matt Gutting

@fredsbend I have read the Old Testament. Including the story about Elijah seeing God not in the earthquake nor in the fire, but in the small whispering sound.

fredsbend

@TRiG I understand completely what you are saying.

TRiG

Annoyingly, he didn't seem to be even trying to understand me, so that conversation ended fairly acrimoniously. Perhaps I misjudged him.

Matt Gutting

7:17 PM

@fredsbend We do know that such a thing has happened before, but we don't know that it has happened to me, and thus not that it is the simplest possible explanation of what happened to me.

@TRiG I completely understand.

fredsbend

@TRiG Thanks for the new word. I shall use that in the future.

Matt Gutting

@fredsbend Both you and TRiG might be interested in a book by my uncle:

books.google.com/books/about/…

This shaped a fair amount of my thought about my own religious beliefs growing up.

fredsbend

@MattGutting The razor does not allow for adding persons or parts to a theory if the theory can be developed without them. Adding any spiritual being to the mix to explain your experience, complicates it unnecessarily, when the simpler explanation is that it was in your head, and the added benefit is that this has happened before to many people.

Matt Gutting

@TRiG I can understand the idea that you don't see God there when you look at the world. I don't always see God there either; but I do often enough to believe that he is there.

@fredsbend But it's not necessarily simpler if I can't explain how it is that it happened to me, and happened only (it appears) for that one particular experience.

BRB

El'endia Starman

For what it's worth, I too claim to have had experiences with God, and what increases my confidence that they were real is that they were unknowingly corroborated by other people. In one instance, a close friend asked me to 'Look' (spiritually) at a friend of his with no additional information. I correctly described what was going on, and at the same time that I prayed and took a look, said friend said that she saw a really bright light. She did not know that I was praying at the time.

fredsbend

7:21 PM

@MattGutting Psychology actually does have some very interesting explanations of how the mind works on these issues. And that stuff is backed by studies (science).

LCIII

@fredsbend Do you believe that Jesus (a normal, human man) was actually killed and actually rose from the dead?

like, not metaphorically

TRiG

@fredsbend But then, people who have believed all their lives still sometimes fail to experience that belief. CS Lewis said he sometimes felt he was posting letters to a non-existent address; Teresa of Calcutta famously experienced a very long period in which "God was silent". And our own Affible Geek has written about "loosing faith" in that sense.

LCIII

like aking to me getting hit by a bus, my hearts stops and I die, then I literally come back to life. That kind of resurrection

El'endia Starman

@LCIII Insert three days in there just to be sure.

LCIII

@El'endiaStarman Whatevs

fredsbend

7:23 PM

@LCIII I think that a man named Jesus did get himself killed around 35AD. His resurrection is far less verifiable. People believed it, sure, but people can be convinced of pretty much anything.

LCIII

@fredsbend ...what?

fredsbend

@TRiG Some have a talent for denial ...

LCIII

@fredsbend "I think that arguing a many named Jesus did not get himself killed around 35AD is ignorant" was that like a typo-saurus?

lol

I don't understand what you just said

still whatting

fredsbend

I've edited. Fingers not moving as fast as they should

LCIII

@fredsbend OK, so basically you don't really believe it

fredsbend

7:25 PM

better?

LCIII

yes :)

fredsbend

@LCIII Probably not the resurrection.

TRiG

@LCIII I don't know enough of the evidence, or enough about history to judge the evidence if I did know it. So I've not personally formed any opinion on whether Jesus lived. But I do tend to trust experts, and I think the consensus opinion is that there really was a Jesus.

fredsbend

His life and death, surely happened, but maybe or maybe not as the Bible describes.

LCIII

@fredsbend The reason I ask is because the real resurrection is the crux of Christianity. Jesus was just another smelly homeless rabbi were it not for this miracles--his chief one being rising from the dead. There would be no reason to believe anything he said if his miracles weren't legit.

Let me know if you think I'm cliché-ing you

TRiG

7:27 PM

@fredsbend But is it denial? AG's post about "losing faith" is mainly about losing the the experience of belief while retaining the actual ... belief.

fredsbend

@LCIII There's a difference between cliché and stalled thinking. Only a handful of people claimed to have seen the risen Christ. The millions of believers that followed are exactly that: believers. They are not witnesses.

TRiG

At least, his categories 1a and 2.

I think it's 1a that Teresa and perhaps Lewis experienced.

Though I could be wrong. I really know very little about their personal struggles.

fredsbend

The only meritorious evidence for the resurrection, imo, is that those claiming be be a witness lived horribly and died for it.

TRiG

> A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.

Oscar Wilde.

fredsbend

The believers that died for it afterwards means nothing. Jihadists die for lesser things.

@TRiG Bang, Oscar. I love that guy. Probably my favorite poof.

He has some of English Literature's best quotes.

El'endia Starman

7:31 PM

@TRiG More likely to be true if the man dying for it knew for sure (i.e. a witness, not just a believer).

TRiG

@El'endiaStarman But people die for all sorts of things.

LCIII

@fredsbend Let me tell you something that convinced me

fredsbend

@TRiG It think so, yes. The omnipotent God who claims to love us should be existential in nature, but experience has proven otherwise. Conclusions, if that God is real, is that He is not omnipotent or does not not love us or both.

But maybe I should read AG's post first.

@LCIII Shoot.

@TRiG Even trivial things like politics (ie, pretty much every war for the last century).

@El'endiaStarman I'm having trouble understand the connections here. Do you have a blog post or something?

LCIII

@fredsbend My message is too long

@fredsbend But I'm a skeptic too. What convinced me was how we got the scriptures. Not necessarily the content of the scriptures, but the fact that we have them

fredsbend

paste into notepad then paste back.

put in a few line breaks with shift+enter

it will automatically overflow

like this.

Zoe

7:41 PM

@LCIII And also the fact that, no matter how many errors, whether copyist or mis-translations the Bible has from past till now, God has not smited us yet.

fredsbend

@LCIII Well, I'm eager to read it. I really should do some work though. I might not reply immediately. Maybe not even today.

LCIII

@Zoe That's different than what I'm saying

Zoe

It fulfils scripture that God would preserve His word

LCIII

@fredsbend I'm looking at this from an atheist perspective

@fredsbend From a perspective that doesn't want to believe

Zoe

I sometimes find it hard to comprehend why I believe in God now

fredsbend

7:43 PM

Not a matter of wanting to believe. It is a matter of wanting to know the Truth and understand reality.

Zoe

I spent about 7 years not believing God, and He convinces me with one short scenario in New Zealand.

TRiG

7

A: Chat format is terrible

Chat is a conversation, not a blog, and not a lecture auditorium. If you are writing paragraph after paragraph before submitting it, then frankly you're not using it for chat. For the record, it does support much longer inputs than Caleb suggests, but that is intended (as you have indirectly disc...

Zoe

I used to resent God, because of evil and poverty and hard life. Now, it is hard to explain why one short event could convince me that He is real.

LCIII

@fredsbend Basically, the question comes down to whether we can trust the scriptures or not--and nothing in history exists like the New Testament Gospels

@fredsbend If somehow you could be shown with 100% certainty that the Jesus of the 4 Gospels and of the Pauline epistles was universal, straight-from-God truth, then you would believe. The issue seems to stem from questioning whether the scriptures are true

fredsbend

@LCIII You mean nothing has been copied as many time with such a high degree of consistency. I'm not sure that is evidence of God intervening to preserve the Scripture.

LCIII

7:48 PM

@fredsbend Hah, yes, that is what I mean

@fredsbend But not other text has been as scrutinized and placed under a microscope as those scriptures.

fredsbend

@LCIII Not at all. This stems from the contrast of what I'm promised in the Bible and what I experience.

TRiG

@LCIII Really? I thought the text of the Jewish scriptures showed a greater degree of consistency than the Greek text of the Christian scriptures does.

LCIII

@fredsbend Could your reflections from your experiences be wrong?

TRiG

But I'm no expert.

Zoe

@fredsbend I do think maybe you have a slightly wrong idea of the promises...

fredsbend

7:50 PM

@LCIII Not another text was as religiously believed by so many in such a short time. They had a great need in the early church for many copies. Not so with other religions.

Zoe

@fredsbend and of God...

fredsbend

@LCIII I'm not sure how I can misinterpret a lack of experience.

The omnipotent God who claims to love us should be existential in nature, but that does not seem to be the case.

Zoe

Anyway, I need to go to sleep. Do still @ me if needed as I would love to discuss this. Nights!

LCIII

@fredsbend Your lack of experience IS your experience.

fredsbend

@Zoe I will surely ping you, if it seems necessary. ;)

@LCIII Right.

LCIII

7:53 PM

@fredsbend Do you think it's possible that God was working in your times when you thought he wasn't, but that he simply didn't show himself the way you expected?

@fredsbend Do you feel like, based on the promises scriptures provides, God should have shown himself to your differently than he did/didn't?

fredsbend

@BruceAlderman I wanted your opinion on this. Did I represent that accurately?

Not to detract from this current discussion ...

@LCIII Sure, but I'm told to have a reason to believe, I don't see a reason to believe that.

Bruce Alderman

@fredsbend I suppose that's one way to put it. Each generation is slightly different from the preceding one. That's evolution in action.

fredsbend

@LCIII Yes. The NT depicts a God that wants to be involved in my life, but that does not happen for me, and for those I see claiming it, I only see the extrinsic excitements from people with as little reason as I have to believe.

Bruce Alderman

@TRiG You're right. The ancient Jews were more careful than the ancient Christains about who they allowed to make copies, and about which manuscripts they could copy from. As a result we have far fewer copies of the Jewish scriptures, and far fewer discrepancies between copies.

fredsbend

@BruceAlderman There's that verse about not even doing a yod or tittle without being sure, or something like that.

El'endia Starman

8:36 PM

@fredsbend I was being a little succinct/terse to fit it into a chat message. That said, I am planning on creating a document with the reasons that I believe, if that's what you're after, and the example I shared would go under the category of "experiential evidence". The gist, though, is that there have been many instances where I knew something I would not have known if God didn't tell me.

Paul Vargas

@fredsbend What do you think the attitude of Job when God allowed all of those tests?

Wikis

Hi @Caleb - do you know why some of my comments were deleted here? christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/32490/… was there something wrong with them or were there just too many comments?

(@Caleb: the link is accidentally to a specific comment but I meant some of my comments under the question...)

fredsbend

10:22 PM

@PaulVargas Here's some thoughts on Job in the room next store.

I see his attitude as fully submissive to an unfair God, only because that God has great power.

I see legitimate fear because he knows he is at the whim of this sometimes angry and merciless God.

Try to reconcile the God in Job with the God in the NT. I'm not sure that can be successfully done.

@El'endiaStarman For the credo of the Starman shall be known to all the world ... as soon as he makes that post.

I look forward to reading it once you have it up.

El'endia Starman

It probably wouldn't be a blog post though, but rather something like a Google Doc.

fredsbend

I can handle that.

Flimzy

10:56 PM

@TRiG I've gotten heat over using the term 'myth' on this site, too. But I'm not one to let "heat" sway me from the proper use of the English language. (I don't think you are, either :))

Flimzy

11:20 PM

Lately I'm amazed at how bad some of our questions are.

David Stratton

11:30 PM

@TRiG There are plenty of questions from 2011 that were considered on-topic then, and are not now.

fredsbend

@Flimzy I saw someone taking a bit of heat maybe 8 months ago, but I set him straight. I could probably find it if it wasn't in the comments.

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