TRPG General Chat

Adeptus

12:08 AM

@Miniman Yep :)

Miniman

12:23 AM

@Adeptus Sorry about that, I didn't notice when I read that answer before.

Adeptus

yeah, I was coming from a 3.5e mindset. The basic intent is still the same, just the skill names are different.

Lord_Gareth

12:41 AM

@Pixie I summon thee. From the blackest depths of Hell I speak thy name. Hear my voice and APPEAR!

In other news, Pathfinder players of the channel

The Lords of the Night playtest has officially begun.

You may find it here: docs.google.com/document/d/…

BESW

....[sigh]

Stopped at the local gas station to pick up a drink on my way to a meeting. Car wouldn't start. Walked back home with drink, cancelled meeting.

Fate, Freeport, and Heart tokens from the Fate tokens Kickstarter are now available for general purchase at the above links.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Feel the power of my bro hug.

BESW

Can't... breathe... camaraderie too... powerful... [collapses, wheezing]

3

Lord_Gareth

> (and if they go after drow or something... drow society is already a nest of predators that hate sunlight, so their vampiric nature would become barely relevant).

BESW

@Lord_Gareth I'm reasonably sure Lolth would be ticked.

Lord_Gareth

12:50 AM

@BESW Lloth's favorite sacrifice is her own priestesses, higher-level the better. She's a stone-cold psycho who gets off on her own people dying.

Miniman

@BESW About a drow who had to kill people to survive? Status quo my friend, status quo.

BESW

Nah, it's not that they'd be dying, or killing. It's that they're her people, and she's the only one allowed to do that sort of thing to them, or tell them to do it to each other.

Lord_Gareth

Random fun fact, Lolth infiltrated elf society as a goddess known as the White Weaver, who is the goddess of hating drow.

BESW

Some upstart undead horning in on her turf would probably result in the whole city getting purged by Lolth in a fit of "If I can't have them, no one will."

Lord_Gareth

She uses her influence there to encourage elves towards evil by telling them to massacre drow.

Miniman

12:52 AM

@BESW Tbh, I think she'd find it hilarious.

BESW

Only if it was her idea in the first place.

Miniman

@BESW I'm pretty sure she enjoys chaos that she didn't cause herself just as much, if not more.

BESW

[shrug] I'm not as deeply versed in her lore, I guess--and maybe what I know is from different editions/settings.

Miniman

@BESW I'm no expert, this is just my perception from what I've read. Of course, there's a strong argument for it being impossible to predict how Lolth will react in any given situation anyway, so it's probably a moot point.

BESW

Heh.

I've only used drow extensively three times in my campaigns. Once they were totally re-fluffed as treetop-dwelling tribes of a Mirkwood-like forest who fought with each other based on which vermin they worshipped; once they were generic common-knowledge drow, and once they were proto-drow who had split off from eladrin and elves politically and religiously but hadn't yet become a separate race.

The generic iteration did have a vampire plot involving a turned high priestess, though it was a kind of secondary plot that didn't get a lot of focus.

Miniman

1:01 AM

@BESW So in the third example, they appeared the same as regular elves?

BESW

@Miniman Yup.

Well, mostly they were eladrin, but same smell for our purposes.

Miniman

@BESW I've never really understood eladrin.

BESW

[puts on 4e lore hat]

Miniman

I'd put on my learning hat, but I love my pirate hat too much.

BESW

Eladrin are the original mortal race of the Feywild, the favoured of the three Feywild gods Corellon, Sehanine, and Lolth.

When Lolth betrayed her siblings, most of the eladrin took sides in the ensuing war.

The eladrin who fled the Feywild and took refuge in the mortal world eventually became elves, as their connection to arcane magic faded and their connection to nature magic strengthened.

The eladrin (and elves) who sided with Lolth were exiled from the Feywild after the war and made their home in the Underdark, where their worship of the dark goddess and their environment combined to turn them into drow.

Miniman

1:08 AM

So eladrin still live in the Feywild?

BESW

Yup. And a lot of elves have moved back.

Miniman

Interesting. Does 4e still include high elves and wood elves, or are elves effectively wood elves and eladrin are effectively high elves?

BESW

In terms of meta narrative, eladrin are a tool to reconcile the previous editions' attempts to combine Tolkien "high elf" lore with British "Child's Ballad" lore.

@Miniman Yeah, pretty much that.

Miniman

@BESW That makes the inclusion of eladrin in 5e very odd.

BESW

Eladrin are the arcane-immersed, city-building, knowledge-focused 'elves,' and elves are the woodsy semi-nomadic hunter/druid 'elves.'

@Miniman Colour me unsurprised?

Miniman

1:11 AM

@BESW Well, the PHB included drow, high elves, and wood elves, but then the DMG added eladrin as an example custom race.

BESW

I haven't read any of it, but maybe...

In 4e, eladrin are so immersed in the arcane power coursing through the Feywild that they are inherently magical.

Like, every eladrin has a teleport power.

Miniman

They included that in 5e, too.

BESW

Is that what distinguishes them from the "civilised magic-studying" high elves?

High elves use magic, eladrins live magic?

Miniman

Could be. From the way they explained it in the DMG the teleport is basically the whole point of eladrin.

BESW

That reminds me of one of my favourite builds in 4e that would probably be better in Fate: the teleporting swordsman.

Miniman

1:14 AM

Anyway, thanks for explaining that!

I have to go BBQ shopping, so ttyl.

BESW

My pleasure. ttfn

doppelgreener

1:42 AM

VTC too broad: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/53235/… (context: roll for shoes has no explicit rules or suggestions for this situation)

Phil

@doppelgreener in that case won't a tried and tested homebrew solution fit as an answer?

BESW

@Phil It's a playstyle mismatch. RFS is a fail-forward system where concepts like HP just don't fit.

Phil

isn't that an answer in itself then?

doppelgreener

@Phil negatory, because the question's of the "I use X, what do you use?" type, where there is no correct answer

well, yes, it'll fit as an answer actually, but the fact that any tried and tested homebrew solution fits as an equally good answer is a problem.

Phil

ah, fair enough

doppelgreener

1:49 AM

@BESW that is probably the case too, yes

BESW

In fact, the assertion that RFS is fail-forward is debatable.

doppelgreener

indeed, and we would have that debate ;P

BESW

It's just too small a system; it's a framework for players to bring their philosophies to the table.

doppelgreener

it is pretty much the epitome of a toolbox system

BESW

Well, it's more like a sturdy pointed stick than a toolbox.

doppelgreener

1:52 AM

that's true XD

it is just one basic mechanic

it is a mechanic and a system and a game

BESW

@doppelgreener I'm trying to revise Jessie's Banter aspect based on some ideas about how she's going to talk and interact with people.

doppelgreener

@BESW [click]

BESW

I kinda don't want to use the word "ebullient."

Miniman

2:09 AM

VTC as opinion based

doppelgreener

@BESW I need to go to work, but i'll be back soon

BESW

No worries.

doppelgreener

wasn't already there on account of not feeling well ;)

BESW

Aw.

doppelgreener

i'm fine now though!

BESW

2:17 AM

Yey!

(I welcome input from others on Jessie, too, of course.)

BESW

2:27 AM

Shalvenay

2:42 AM

o/ BESW

BESW

[wave]

Shalvenay

how's it going?

BESW

Not the best day ever.

Miniman

@BESW The previously-mentioned busyness?

BESW

@Miniman See also, among other unmentioned things.

Miniman

2:46 AM

@BESW I actually did read that, I think I forgot it immediately afterwards. I'm kind of a terrible person.

Shalvenay

aaah -- went OK here, although coming to grips with something else as well -- I have a hard time handling scope/scale or theme constraints on my imagination, but especially the former

example -- I have characters for which I have no trouble imagining them walking into a royal court and going "Your kingdom. 50 million ISK, cash money, on the table, or I can convert it into a currency of your choice, of course. Deal?"

Tritium21

3:04 AM

yellow

...aw crap, I am in a state of mind where I say what i type

BESW

I'm 20 minutes into Cleopatra Jones and the villain is totally a My Life With Master archetype.

She screams and rants and plots and schemes, she has enormous desires and craves the fear of people outside her control, and she uses her sons as Minions to achieve her goals because she seems powerless to act herself.

[takes notes]

Shalvenay

heheh :P

hrm...you think my question about working with scope/scale (and to a lesser extent thematic) constraints on my RP belongs on the site...?

BESW

"I told you where and I told you when and I told you how, and you STILL couldn't kill her?"

doppelgreener

... i am at a loss for handling this question

or more specifically its first answer, which is at +20 and hasn't answered the question

(it answered the title)

Miniman

3:21 AM

I downvoted that one, and HeyICanChan has said that it's not an answer, so it's not going to be accepted.

Outside of downvoting, flagging as not an answer is the only option.

Shalvenay

yeah -- and it's not to NAA levels

Miniman

Which, I can certainly see an argument for, but I don't think it'll fly.

Shalvenay

o/ greener

doppelgreener

@Miniman i have done both those things (let's see what happens), and edited the question title

Miniman

Wow, first time I've ever seen an advertisement answer that actually answered the question

doppelgreener

3:33 AM

@Miniman They exist! There's lots.

"Hi, I made this! It is what you're looking for."

Miniman

3:44 AM

@doppelgreener It just came up in my review queue as flagged as low quality. Do I recommend deletion even though it's the wrong reason, or what?

doppelgreener

3:56 AM

@Miniman same thing

whether the system calls it low quality or not an answer is immaterial

Miniman

VTC

Shalvenay

/me plants a flag on the linked question

also, reading rpg.stackexchange.com/a/50090/16044 (in particular, the list of suggestions at the end) and going "alright -- while those do work for taking the emphasis off of combat, what do you do with someone like me who has no qualms about wielding economic or socioemotional power in a munchkinlike fashion?"

for instance -- character wants to sell my char +1 arrows -- I immediately order 10k or 100k of 'em

(also: see the earlier example of kingdom-buying)

Miniman

Oh. I thought these questions were simple and small enough to fit into one. I do have the Player Hand Book, but I couldn't find this information. — szrrizvi 1 min ago

Shalvenay

*fail*

Miniman

I did my best to explain the problems, but I don't know what else to say other than RTM. Anyone else want to have a try?

BESW

4:13 AM

@AgentPaper Awesome answer on the evil campaign question.

AgentPaper

Thanks!

BESW

I almost had the same idea as an addendum to mine, but I couldn't figure out how to word it until your post reminded me of Ed's speech on the nature of good and evil.

AgentPaper

It's a good speech.

Your answer seems more like a suggestion for a specific type of campaign, rather than just general advice on how to make an evil campaign.

BESW

It rises out of trying multiple different ways to run an evil campaign in the D&D mindset.

If it weren't so solidly experience-based, I'd probably not have felt it was appropriate.

Shalvenay

@BESW -- I'm looking at myself in the mirror, reading rpg.stackexchange.com/a/50090/16044, and going "wow. I'm not only a munchkin, but I'm a munchkin to the point where the lack of combat in a campaign does not have a measurable effect on my munchkinry"

doppelgreener

4:22 AM

@BESW might it be worthwhile to mention something along those lines? "i've tried other approaches like x y z, they didn't seem to work very well compared to this one" or something

Shalvenay

(i.e. even when going for a non-combat solution, it will break drama instead of building it, and my characters have no qualms about wielding their economic capabilities to their fullest or using the emotions of others as psychological weapons)

AgentPaper

Well, it depends on how you define "munchkin", I guess.

Shalvenay

@AgentPaper -- someone who seeks power as their primary goal

AgentPaper

To me, being a munchkin means that you base your interpretation of the rules based on which interpretation allows you, personally, to gain the most benefit, rather than based on which one makes the most "sense".

@Shalvenay That's just ambition.

Shalvenay

@AgentPaper -- and in my case, this extends beyond the rules to the metaphysics of the game and the psychology of other characters

doppelgreener

4:26 AM

@Shalvenay munchkin is a pejorative term for people who do that and also are troublemakers, but in your case that's accurate

Shalvenay

(otherwise, I agree with your definition more than mine)

@doppelgreener -- while I'm not (even close to always) intending to cause trouble by bending the rules to my benefit, it winds up causing far more trouble than I intend it to because people go "oh no no" as their instinctual gut reaction

BESW

@doppelgreener Done.

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay yes, i recognise that. but it is not a matter of whether there's someone focused on power who is out to be malicious, but whether their focus on power begins to be disruptive and cause trouble.

Shalvenay

@doppelgreener -- I find that it's only as disruptive as one lets it be

in the 'bad disruptive' sense at least

doppelgreener

but it's also a belittling term and has a lot of other baggage, such as being connected to people who focus on roleplay and despise even the thought of anything resembling optimisation

Shalvenay

4:30 AM

@doppelgreener -- whereas, I'm of the viewpoint that characters should have enough metaphysical knowledge of the world around them to optimize themselves

well, metaphysical knowledge and decision-making authority

in other words -- to me, optimization ought to be an in-character activity

agreed that it has lots and lots of connotations -- I was only using it due to the phrasing of the linked answer

Metool

Evening.

Shalvenay

a discussion question for the night: why shouldn't optimization be in-character?

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay yes, naturally. (if one can help it at all!) i was just correcting your definition to point out that munchkins are those who also cause trouble in the process of seeking power (intentionally or not) -- and that by that measure, you describing yourself as such still fits.

(you have after all recognised your behaviour to create trouble, hence all our discussions)

Shalvenay

aye. what I'm also saying (concurring with your statement about people who despise all forms of charopt) is that those people treat anything that hints at a powergrab as automatically troublemaking

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay i'm not sure who "those people" are

Shalvenay

4:35 AM

@doppelgreener -- the same bunch you referred to that despise all things charopt

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay they might, but it's also an extremely overbroad generalisation that's almost strictly theoretical and useless to discuss at that level :P

afk! things.

Shalvenay

heheh

BESW

I think the take-away is that "munchkin" is used to describe a fairly wide range of undesirable behaviours joined together only by a vague "unfair manipulation of the game" theme.

And of course "unfair" is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Good luck on your saving throws vs his eyebeams.

2

Tritium21

4:58 AM

Munchkin - n; any player that dicks over the gm and or the party via the rules.

Pixie

@Lord_Gareth You know how to get my attention.

BESW

@Tritium21 Except when it's not the rules that are being exploited. For example, "munchkin" is also used to describe exploitations of narrative to bypass inconvenient rules.

Tritium21

Munchkin - n; any player that dicks over the gm and or the party via 'systems' in play during the session - though i dont call THAT munchkinisim, thats PLAYING IT RIGHT

BESW

8

Q: Creating Poison Cheaply - Potato Tea?

It seems that the effectiveness of poisons, both in the core list as well as in homebrew systems for inventing your own, are balanced with and directly proportional to their cost. However, there are many poisons that are craftable in real-life at trivial cost. One of the greatest examples is th...

Potato tea is a classic munchkin tactic: using the logic of real-life knowledge (poisons are cheap and easy to acquire, and are often automatically deadly) to skirt the fact that the game's paradigm (poisons are expensive and strictly controlled, and rarely lethal) is totally different.

Tritium21

Simple solution: greyhawk does not have potatoes (at your table)

BESW

5:12 AM

If the game's paradigm matched the real-life experience, it wouldn't be munchkinry--boring, maybe, but not an exploit.

Miniman

@BESW And doesn't involve rules optimisation in any form!

BESW

@Tritium21 That's a band-aid for a particular manifestation of the player's paradigm-challenging exploits. Banning everything that could be exploited quickly turns into an escalating cold war. The solution is to address the player's desire to find and implement such exploits.

Tritium21

"Thats very clever, have some gear, let the rust of us play D&D"

You dont solve munchkinism. You either roll with it, or dismiss the player. I go with roll with it.

Magician

...paradigms...mismatch...

distant words carried by the wind

BESW

I solve it. Munchkinism has motives underlying it. If I can work with the player to discover why he's doing it, we can either address the underlying dissatisfaction or find a productive channel for the urge.

Miniman

5:17 AM

@BESW Them's fightin words.

Tritium21

Munchkin is a playstyle.

Are we not supposed to embrace it?

Miniman

The site embraces all playstyles, DMs are free to do as they please within their groups.

BESW

I've done it multiple times at my table. Sometimes the group can't find a solution amenable to everyone, but often exploitive activity is a defensive response or a desire for creative problem-solving.

Magician

The playstyle is called "munchkinism" when it doesn't go along with the preferred playstyle of the speaker. Munchkinism is not embraced by definition.

BESW

As a creative problem-solving playstyle, it can be channelled in ways not disruptive to the group--and thus is no longer munchkinery.

Tritium21

5:20 AM

what is being described as a problem is what I WANT in players

BESW

As a defensive tactic, we just have to figure out what they're feeling attacked by.

@Tritium21 You want "undesirable and unfair manipulation of the game"? 'cause that's the definition I'm working on.

It's definitionally not what you're talking about, if you want it.

Tritium21

Thats not what was described

BESW

37 mins ago, by BESW

I think the take-away is that "munchkin" is used to describe a fairly wide range of undesirable behaviours joined together only by a vague "unfair manipulation of the game" theme.

Tritium21

There is no such thing

This is a problem with the DM not the players

The dm needs to fix themselves

Magician

Players can absolutely be disruptive to the game.

Pixie

5:23 AM

It is a problem with the players when they're violating the needs and expectations of the group in order to get what they want. There is no one action that is universally munchkin-y. If your group is cool with something, it's not being a munchkin in your group's context.

Tritium21

Using rules and and logic...oh no... my fragile plot is ruined

BESW

@Tritium21 That's a rather significant shift in the frame of the concept.

Tritium21

How much does it REALLY matter to the plot if the player assassinated the baron for one copper instead of 10 gold? If that kind of 'munchkinism' is really ruining the game, its the GMs fault

BESW

There's been no focus on GM-defined munchkinism (most of the munchkin accusations I've encountered historically come from other players), nor any sense that it's about disrupting the plot. More often it's about ignoring and disrepecting the group's contract.

Shalvenay

@BESW -- mostly the latter in my case -- but I will say this -- the problem comes when other players (or the DM) are not prepared to work outside their own scope, which is what you need to do to channel such a playstyle to be productive

@Tritium21 -- agreed on that one -- plots that are that fragile should break :P

BESW

5:28 AM

If the group WANTS to use real-world ideas to ignore the mechanics they agreed to use, that's fine. But if only one person wants to ignore the story-framing structures the group has agreed to use, that's not cool.

Tritium21

I really HATE when this comes up because EVERYONE ELSES play style is munchkin if its different than yours

BESW

I'm not saying anything about one playstyle over another.

Tritium21

Thats the core of the problem here

BESW

The potato tea question was an example of a kind of strategy which can be used in nearly any playstyle. I generalised it immediately following the link.

Tritium21

One player talks the group out of everything, the player thats in this for the kill and loot calls the social player a munchkin. the player who poisons with patato tea gets called a munchkin by the grognard who sticks by the equipment list

Its a term to demean other playstyles

Metool

5:31 AM

[headache]

Magician

Lots of different things here. PCs who do something the GM hadn't anticipated can break the plot. Sometimes it's because the plot is weak, and the GM should have considered all reasonable actions PCs could take to see if some of them would ruin it. At other times, PCs do something unreasonable, like attack the king, and it's their fault the game falls apart as they've acted outside the reasonable expectations.

Shalvenay

@Magician -- what do you do when you have no concept of 'reasonable expectations' to work from?

Tritium21

Roll with it

Magician

In a game all about group storytelling, you need shared expectations.

2

Shalvenay

@Magician -- the point I'm making is that my imagination is not bounded by scope or scale for the most part

BESW

5:33 AM

@Shalvenay Nobody's is, I hope!

Magician

And then there's the case when PCs do something that's well within the reasonable expectations, but is not something GM had even considered. The most obvious example is Speak With Dead, which ruins most murder mystery plots while being the most natural thing for PCs to do, if they can think of it.

Pixie

@Magician This exactly. Communal understanding is very important.

Shalvenay

I have characters for which "go in and buy the whole planet out" is well within their means

Magician

@Shalvenay And that's perfectly fine in Rogue Trader.

Tritium21

Pro tip: dont run murder mystery plots in settings where death is literally just a minor setback

2

BESW

5:34 AM

@Shalvenay It's about self-control and context awareness in choosing what ideas are appropriate for the time and place. I'm reasonably sure you're capable of punching people and yet often choose not to.

Shalvenay

@Magician -- agreed that some settings can deal with it NP -- the character in question is from Eve Online btw (4.3 billion ISK might be a bit much for even Rogue Trader, though!)

BESW

The challenge it seems you face is in analysing your context because it's a social construct made up of many faceless people you have limited interaction with.

Shalvenay

@BESW -- yeah, exactly: contextual analysis is where I fall down

doppelgreener

@Tritium21 "we embrace playstyles" != "we accept all playstyles as equally good and not troublesome or problematic"

BESW

@Shalvenay And you've got a particularly challenging one: lots of people, complex multilayered interactions, no body language, and no hang time.

doppelgreener

5:36 AM

see everybody reserving the right to point out problems where they exist

Pixie

@Magician Heh. We just totally did this in Pathfnder just now (defying expectations in reasonable ways), but in a way that the GM loved.

BESW

For example, my IRL groups run a lot more smoothly when we take time to socialise outside the RPG context.

Shalvenay

@BESW -- yeah, along with an expectation that the players all are bringing a certain reality-archetype to the game to begin with

Pixie

When the GM hands you a pile of XP and says, "I want to just take a moment to say you guys pulled some unexpected sh*t," it is a nice feeling.

Shalvenay

@doppelgreener -- there are no inherently problematic playstyles

just ones that don't mesh well with others

doppelgreener

5:38 AM

i'm not saying that.

hey y'all, please be aware that this conversation is experiencing a critical concentration of straw men.

there were several whilst i was scrolling through the log from a few minutes ago.

Shalvenay

@BESW -- agreed -- working with a small circle on a regular basis is much easier, and also working with people you know

doppelgreener

@BESW by the way, your revised evil campaign answer is great. it was already pretty good but adding those details really did help.

@Metool your hat is very big, maybe that is having cranial repercussions. have you considered switching to a smaller one?

BESW

@doppelgreener Thanks.

Hrm. How do I take "Making the galaxy safer by awesomely defeating horrible people" and turn it into a pithy aspect?

Shalvenay

@Pixie -- I saw your link from yesterday btw -- definitely worth a star and then some, although I find that I have the exact polar opposite of the chainmail bikini problem -- I tend to overengineer the armor systems my combat chars wear

Magician

@BESW ...Guardian of the Galaxy? :P

BESW

5:46 AM

@Magician I've already got Sworn to uphold Galactic Law. This is more about the how and why of it.

Adeptus

@Tritium21 You know, that could be an interesting angle... the resurrected character doesn't know who killed them, so is trying to find out (for either justice or revenge, depending)

It wouldn't be a typical murder mystery

Tritium21

@Adeptus They could have been poisoned by potato tea!

Magician

All Out of Space Gum

BESW

@Adeptus Pushing Daisies did that pretty regularly, for exactly this reason.

Shalvenay

instead of just "suit of chainmail, done" -- think of a multiple-layered suit with chain sandwiched between two layers of leather, rib-and-spine vambraces/greaves with spikes on them, and a full helm complete with a chinstrap

BESW

5:48 AM

The whole conceit of Pushing Daisies is that the protagonist can talk to the dead, and one of the running plots is him trying to solve crimes with this ability. It's a lot harder than it sounds.

Shalvenay

at the end of the day, it's about as close to 360degree protection as you'll get from a suit of chainmail with a helm on top

Adeptus

actually, that reminds me of a movie I watched... late 80s or early 90s, on TV. Guy gets poisoned by slow-acting but unstoppable deadly poison. Spends his last 48(?) hours working out who did it.

Shalvenay

@BESW -- 1) re: talking to dead -- the dead often have no clue what took them out, even if you ask them :P

BESW

Or they don't want to tell you, or their information is less than useful.

Shalvenay

2) re your character -- "Welcome to -1.0 space-- your laws don't apply here!"

BESW

5:50 AM

If the guy they finger has an iron-clad alibi, for instance.

Shalvenay

@BeSW -- yeah

Pixie

@Shalvenay It isn't necessarily a problem to think about it like this, but for a lot of players it's going to be too much detail to go into on a regular basis.

BESW

"I was killed by President Nixon" doesn't get you a lot closer to solving the case unless Patrick Swayze is on your list of suspects.

> Jessie knows full well that Bad Guys exist, and while she's happy to talk to them, she knows they're mean and cruel and need their butts kicked. Still, she's happy to meet Bad Guys because they're opportunities to be awesome. If the galaxy stopped having Bad Guys she'd be happy for everyone else, but a bit dejected for herself.

Shalvenay

@Pixie -- yeah -- fortunately, most of it's basically treatable as a full-coverage chain suit

the padding is just a practical/simulationist piece b/c everybody forgets about backfacing

(well, just about everyone who hasn't worn armor RL and had it do it's job, that is)

BESW

Aaaand hrm. This song's lyrics are seriously mad sciencey.

> First you take my heart/ In the palm of your hand/ Then you squeeze it/ Then you take my mind/ And play with it all night....

Adeptus

5:55 AM

@Shalvenay If you're talking about a system with defined armour types (eg, D&D) then it'd be "pick an armour type, it defends this well. I don't care what embellishments you make". For something more freeform, well... every armour has a downside. Either it has gaps/weak spots, or you just can't move in it.

Shalvenay

yeah -- I generally RP that slashes aren't going to do much, thrusts require a thin blade and a good angle to work well, and blunt trauma is fairly nasty

the character is just as reliant on agility and awareness to save her as she is on her armor anyway

(in fact, the two can work together -- even if you take a blow, the difference between straight-on and a glancing angle can be huge -- sloping works!)

I really do need to get some sleep here -- hopefully I can catch up to some of you folks this weekend though :)

doppelgreener

@Magician hehehehehe. I like this one.

I don't think it's appropriate for Jessie but I like it nevertheless. :)

@BESW Frightening sciencey.

Miniman

6:12 AM

@Shalvenay The description of chainmail in both 3.5 and 5th ed D&D specifically mentions padding. (Probably other editionds, too.)

doppelgreener

@BESW Re "Making the galaxy safer by awesomely defeating horrible people." - is there anything missing from that? Do you just want it shorter, or do you want it to describe more about her?

Maybe a quote from her will do?

"Y'gotta toughen up and kick some teeth in sometimes" or something.

AgentPaper

Wow, that was fast.

1

A: Are there any tricks to a successful play-by-post/play-by-e-mail game?

1) Don't rush things It can be tempting to try and start the game off with a flurry of activity, refreshing the thread constantly, replying to every little thing as soon as possible, pushing players to post as often as possible, but ultimately you won't be able to keep this up. The game will sta...

Posted a new answer to an old question, and less than 30 seconds later it's already got a +1.

doppelgreener

@AgentPaper do note that older question says "If you have ever run or played in" at the top

... though it seems that answers have almost entirely ignored the player side, so i like your new question.

BESW

@doppelgreener I dunno, it doesn't have the right feel. My aspect generator's been out of whack for a while.

Maybe a line is the way to go.

doppelgreener

@BESW Through this I am recalling the time you said we sometimes try to be too clever with our aspects and pack too much in. Maybe for now it doesn't need to be a total complete description of her - you can express some of the mechanically important stuff and we can improve it later once you've metaphorically given her legs a stretch.

BESW

6:26 AM

One of my own aspects IS Too clever by far.

2

doppelgreener

Yeah, it set off a small alarm in my head when you wrote out an aspect-sized sentence, and your reason for not just outright using it was it wasn't pithy enough.

Aspects don't have to just be 3-5 words! They can be phrases too.

I think it makes an awesome aspect, even. It says everything you need it to say, for now. You can give us the right feel for it by playing her and showing us what it means.

Pixie

6:59 AM

@AgentPaper Working on an answer, although I dunno if I'll post it immediately. I tend to like to work on my answers a lot before I post them, and although I have tons of experience in this area, it's sadly been a while...

trogdor

@BESW I would say athletics or rapport, it depends mostly on what part of the performance is most important to the magic

AgentPaper

@Pixie Sounds good, I'm looking forwards to it.

Pixie

I'm having to really think back. xD

AgentPaper

It's partly for myself, but I'm also hoping to show it to the players in my PbP game to maybe help them out a bit.

And, of course, to introduce them to RPG.se

Adeptus

My problem player has kind-of apologised for his behaviour. Apparently he didn't realise he was doing it.

doppelgreener

7:02 AM

@Adeptus Yay!

AgentPaper

Man, so many hats.

Pixie

@AgentPaper Giving really actionable advice is perhaps the hardest part, especially from the player's end, because the most common cause of game death in my experience is people simply losing interest and wandering away. You can't control other people doing that.

AgentPaper

Yeah, my original intent was just to ask for general advice for a player in a PbP game.

Adeptus

@doppelgreener Yes! Now hopefully, he won't fall back into old habits...

AgentPaper

If you think there's a better angle to go at that from, I'm all ears.

Pixie

7:06 AM

And then a lot of it is just stuff that's valid in every game setting: communication, understanding of ground rules, commitment, etc. But I do intend to look at commitment and understanding of rules as they relate to PbP games specifically because that's where a lot of issues I've had have arisen in the past.

Also: group brainstorming. It has helped a lot, especially in the context of my games where it's frequently a bunch of strangers coming together. Getting to understand each other's preferences and forging some connection between players is quite helpful here. Even where friends are involved, keeping ideas going even when actual posts aren't being made can be helpful.

trogdor

@Pixie this is exactly what happens when I see a 4E question I want to answer

like, almost perfectly exact

Pixie

@trogdor Haha! I get really excited when I can see a question I can answer, because they're not that frequent, but it takes me time to whack my thoughts into helpfulness.

trogdor

yes exactly

Pixie

I've got to turn these thoughts into specific advice I would actually give to players in order for it to be a really good answer.

trogdor

though to be honest a year ago I could have answered a lot more

Pixie

7:14 AM

Yeah. I'm not in the thick of it right now. I miss it...

trogdor

or possibly a little longer ago than that

I used to know so much about 4E it almost hurt

and at that time I probably would have sprung on any 4E question I saw if I had actually been on this site, or active here

now I mostly just hang in chat

Pixie

Heh. Same.

I wait around for questions I can pounce upon, but it's more like a slow-mo run followed by a lot of wrestling around with the question and shouting at it.

AgentPaper

Nothing wrong with quality over quantity.

Or rather, everything right.

Pixie

Yeah, that's the thing. If I'm not going to give the best answer I can I might as well not.

AgentPaper

Hm, kinda a longshot, but has anyone here read the Commonwealth saga?

trogdor

7:19 AM

yeah, I can't bring myself to answer any question I don't have a huge useful answer for already in my brain

or at least that I don't have source material to delve into

almost the same thing

BESW

Okay, this article is amazing.

G4S Secure Solutions

G4S Secure Solutions (USA) is an American security services company, and a wholly owned subsidiary of G4S plc. It was founded as The Wackenhut Corporation in 1954, in Coral Gables, Florida, by George Wackenhut and three partners (all are former FBI agents). In 2002 the company was acquired for $570 million by Danish corporation Group 4 Falck (itself then merged to form British company G4S in 2004). In 2010, G4S Wackenhut changed its name to G4S Secure Solutions (USA) to reflect the new business model. The G4S Americas Region headquarters is in Jupiter, Florida. == Background == After earl...

> After early struggles (including a fistfight between George Wackenhut and one of his partners), Wackenhut took sole control of his company in 1958...

doppelgreener

@BESW o/ Hi I'd like this to get involved in our campaign world at some point. xD

Any company where fistfights are on the list of what upper leadership has done is awesome for stories.

BESW

My mother remembers when the only security agency on Guam was Wackenhut. It's pronounced Whack-a-Nut.

doppelgreener

@BESW That's one heck of a name for a security company.

BESW

And before that, he was FBI Agent Whack-a-Nut.

AgentPaper

7:33 AM

I assume G4S stands for Guns 4 Sale?

BESW

It was originally Kjøbenhavn Frederiksberg Nattevagt, then Falck, then it merged with Group 4 to become Group 4 Falck, which bought Wackenhut and then merged with Securicor, becoming Group 4 Securicor.

Pixie

Oh, wow.

trogdor

jeez

Pixie

Mm, yeah, I'm not getting this post done tonight. Oh well, draft saved for the morrow. If I survive another day of work. Just have to make it to Saturday... [runs toward it across a field of flowers, arms outstretched]

BESW

@Pixie [Dalek appears out of nowhere] EXTERMINATE!

Pixie

7:48 AM

@BESW Maybe you could exterminate the remaining days of the week first, friend Dalek.

trogdor

lol

doppelgreener

8:15 AM

@BESW and @trog: I just read ALAN's story.

trogdor

nice

does he come off at all sympathetic,.. or just murdery?

doppelgreener

He came off as a sociopath with a severe case of single-mindedness where everything else was irrelevant, a benefit or an obstacle.

He didn't come off as murdery, he just didn't care.

it was a really excellent story though.

trogdor

8:35 AM

mk cool

I was just wondering

cause he stuck in my mind, but I only read his cliffnotes in the ARRPG book

doppelgreener

!!

you haven't read his story?

trogdor

nope

is it a free one?

cause those are the ones I read

this is why I asked you

I wasn't trying to compare what I thought of him

I was just soliciting an opinion from someone who actually read his story

doppelgreener

I don't know, I have been buying the volumes from the comic shop next to my work. (I work next to a comic shop. This is really cool.)

and ok :)

want me to say more about his attitude?

trogdor

no, I was just curious if he had any redeeming qualities

doppelgreener

not really XD

trogdor

8:39 AM

cause he did have the plan that would result in a huge mass extinction of at least most life on the planet

as a side effect

doppelgreener

yes c(:

he was interested in stuff insofaras it would allow him to learn.

humans were helpful for as long as they could support his ambitions; and once it reached a point where they might not be able to help him any longer, he decided he had to leave and become autonomous, and it was just an unfortunate side-effect that most of human civilisation would be wiped out. (or to him: a side-effect.)

trogdor

the key word being side effect, there would have been a zero chance of redeeming qualities if his plan involved that level of death as his actual intent rather than just the side effect of his intent

though I admit that redeeming qualities are still extremley hard even if that level of death is simply a side effect

if you are willing to kill,.. almost everything on your own home planet to get what you want, you are still almost as sick as the guy who specifically wants to kill most life on his own home planet

doppelgreener

yes pretty much

trogdor

the almost part is the reason I asked

not that it still isn't a significant level of evil through apathy

doppelgreener

yeah it probably is

trogdor

8:59 AM

to be fair, I did expect the answer would basically be the one you gave

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