TRPG General Chat - 2014-11-28 (page 1 of 2)

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12:00 AM

and for all NPCs and monsters I use simple stick figures

with numbers on the fold to tell them apart and a range of base colours

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44

Q: Profile Page Makeover, Part 3: the Prototype returns

You may recall this thing - our profile page makeover prototype, the reloaded user page. We posted a prototype 6 months ago and got a lot of feedback. Since then, generations of dinosaurs were born, fell in love, had families and were eventually killed by a comet. Or climate change, or maybe tex...

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12:32 AM

2

Q: Experiential audit of [tag:rules-as-written], please?

So, I've been noticing a trend on rules-as-written lately. Mainly, people realising that "rules" is banned, so they use the first tag that starts with rules which, y'know, says rules on it. This is rules-as-written which, while quite related to rules, isn't. I've also been noticing that our use...

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:01 AM

Ahem. I think this is the point where this argument has overstayed its welcome in chat. Take this discussion to a dedicated room please.

And if you could mention that room, so I can drop this two-day long argument into it, that would make me less grumpy.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/19018/…

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

thankyou

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Thank you

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

→ 102 messages moved to Abstraction argument

→ 30 messages moved to Abstraction argument

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Sorry about that getting out of hand

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1:05 AM

@Miniman ::grumblegrumblegrumble::

in other news, is my meta question clearer now?

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Yep, makes sense. Like I said, if you still haven't got anything by the time I have a chance to work on it I'll have a go at answering.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

we need multiple perspectives, so have a go at answering any case

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Unless someone posts an answer that I can just +1 :P

@Mourdos Mostly I think I was going to ask about what 3pp material was allowed beyond Psionics/Path of War (if any). Had a few ideas that used classes from Rogue Genius and Kobold Press. Mainly was going to ask if you were online and @Aaron wasn't. Either way, I'll ask him when he comes back on Skype.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

And now back to -coffee- work.

3 hours later…

4:09 AM

I am thankful for the moon and the sun not attacking and eating each other upon being forced to share the sky at the same time. I am a bear.

Tweeted by A_single_bear on November 27, 2014 at 8:07 PM

2

I am also thankful for all you humans/animals/robots who like to read my bear thoughts and adventures. I am a bear. You are (likely) humans.

Tweeted by A_single_bear on November 27, 2014 at 8:33 PM

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

4:51 AM

→ 336 messages moved to pathfinder game

→ 1 message moved to pathfinder game

oh come on...

thank you

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Yes.

So, just for the record. 3 hour arguments on any game make me grumpy

good conversation is good. Arguments are not good.

@Dorian I recommend, that if you find you want to get into lengthy discussions on any of the 3 topics I've recently migrated, or to extrapolate from that trend, do so in a chatroom dedicated to that kind of argumentation. We have... a sufficiency of them.

Didn't realize that topic was going to be so lengthy. Don't know what the other topic you've moved is, and noone expressed a desire to have our topic discussed elsewhere till right there at the end, and we did move at that point.

No offense meant, but I've been rebuffed every time I try to say something about a long discussion going on in here that unless it's off topic or the room wants to discuss something else or it offends someone it normally wouldn't be moved.

Heck, I've been rebuffed when the topic was something completely unrelated to tabletop gaming.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

The abstraction argument, the pathfinder... vigorous discussion

Guess I fail to see why topics relating directly to tabletop game rules in an otherwise dead room who's topic is general tabletop discussion suddenly have to be moved elsewhere.

5:02 AM

@Dorian The key distinction is the argument vs discussion, I think

That's two Brian. You said 3 earlier.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

I did. Mate.

I don't know what the third was.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

I remember one a few days ago. Since I don't feel like combing through more of history. I took the two from today and added one.

I will, for accuracy's sake however, revise my estimate to 2.5 +- 0.5

We don't like arguments in here. We've had too many.

Alright, the main reason though is I can't avoid a topic if I don't know what it is.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

5:05 AM

It's worthwhile to self-monitor for repeated dissention on a topic. Any topic. And then say "hey, you and I seem to be having a argument. Let's go take it into Pathfinder, or abstraction, or 5e debates, or not a bar"

It's not a good outcome to have these sorts of discussions

@Dorian in light of this a decent guideline is probably that if you're mainly ABABing for an hour or more, it's probably a good idea to invite your conversation partner to another room so as to clear up this one.

it's entirely possible it was 'otherwise dead' because there was an intense discussion going on and nobody wanted to step into the space.

(i know i didn't, i switched my active room to another partway through)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

The reason for these recommendations is that long, contentious, arguments/vigorous discussions tend to breed ill will and to metastasize.

And, then, we get things like me banning all 5e discussion from this chat because of the sheer vitriol involved. That was not a good time.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Brain hurts too much right now, had to google that last word to figure out what it was.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

growing like a cancer

sucking resources from otherwise healthy cells into unchecked and ultimately very harmful "growth"

Yes, I found that out after googling it, hence saying I had to google it =_=

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

5:10 AM

Do you understand, in general, what we're saying, mate?

I understand and apologize for the inconvenience. Though I will say that I'm not exactly the most capable person when it comes to self-monitoring, and that isn't something I can do much about (though not for lack of trying)

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Mmm. then may I suggest a technique of simply asking the community, "hey, is it cool to continue a conversation about this in here" after more than 20 minutes on a conversation?

Assuming I even notice 20 minutes pass. I intended to take a shower before everything was locked up at 9ish. Didn't notice the time until it was 11ish.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Indeed. Well, enjoy your evening.

@Dorian good opportunity to practice then ;)

have a good night

5:15 AM

To clarify, as much as the internet uses the term for flaming or as excuses, I have Aspergers (as well as manic depression, but I have a better handle on that than I do the Aspergers). It's difficult for me to grasp social situations and the like even when I have the advantages of tone of voice and body language...

I've been practicing for years, and still haven't gotten much better.

It's kinda like trying to swim up-river with only one arm. yes, technically it's possible, you won't make much progress though.

I also have aspergers. It's a mostly meaningless diagnosis.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

In context of this room, I absolutely encourage you to use the room for reflection. Ask us if you're wondering something. Instead of trying to guess, just ask. If someone gives you grief about that, well, I will be extremely grumpy at them.

It can be, depending on someone's functionality. I'm lucky enough to have had roleplaying as a teacher over the years.

And Brian, the problem is more not noticing when I need to wonder.

("Don't make me grumpy. You wouldn't like me when I'm grumpy.")

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@doppelgreener s/when I'm grumpy//g

@Dorian Are you familiar with the idea of an exocortex?

5:19 AM

When I'm hooked on a train of thought, I'm aware of little else unless I get a rude awakening.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton from reading the first sentence of a wikipedia article I just googled? yes

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

in short: build (or utilize) tools outside of your brain to suppliment your brain. Set timers, in browser, as reminders. Have checklists.

We have more than one person with social-context challenges. Knowing that helps us help them.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Checklists are such an amazing technology. (as I've answered in answers many times), and by moving cognition out of the thing which does it, you have more space for your thoughts.

I use checklists. I also have uncountable notepad documents full of checklists I haven't looked at and will probably never finish lol

Learning when to let a topic drop is a valuable skill. Look at the argument you just made, and then look at or think of the ones you made before that. If the one you're making is too similar to your previous arguments, it means you've gotten into a loop and should just stop.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

5:22 AM

@Dorian indeed.

Also for context this is an issue that people without aspergers can have too. It's a skill people have to develop.

Sometimes I finish them though, depends on how long I have to work on something before something else derails my plans (yet again)

And in that case, I share with you one of my favourite pictures ever:

user image

user image

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

but yes, make your lists more deeply embedded in your workflow. Don't rely on a biological substrate to be reminded of them.

5:23 AM

@BESW adding to my massive seals folder.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton man I could not survive without reminders and calendars and todo lists

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Ugh. preparing 4 tablets for a conference is... so much fun.

@doppelgreener cofffeeeeeeeeee

but yes.

Anyways, @Dorian @AgentPaper I'll keep what you said in mind and step in earlier, instead of giving you enough rope to summon Moderator Intervention (Sor/Wis 4)

(contrast Greater Moderator Intervention (Sor/Wis 7) and Community Intervention, oh shit run (Sor/Wis 9)

I don't know if my laptop could run timers reliably. I'm lucky when the whole thing doesn't lock up lol. Like I said, I'll put forth an effort, but I can't guarantee results. All I can do is try my best and see where it gets me.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton As someone who's gone through (and/or going through) the same thing, checklists and notes aren't helpful. There's no way to make them helpful, they're just not on a fundamental level. This is something that you need to fix by changing how you think and being more aware of what you're doing. It takes a lot of effort but there's no other way around it.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Dorian And we're happy to help you reflect.

5:25 AM

My current chat goal is to notice when I'm getting emotional about a topic and be more careful about how I'm contributing to it.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

And, as a fellow depression sufferer, let me be clear that none of this reflects poorly on you. I know how... little these words are worth and how likely beatingup will happen in the darkness of the mind, but no social opprobrium attaches to this series of interactions.

I used to be a lot better at it, but IRL is taking a lot more of my equanimity rations lately.

@AgentPaper I give you a star for that, since if I said it it would sound more like an excuse. Though I do have to object to a portion of that, notes help me greatly (when I remember to look at them, which is usually for character creation purposes lol).

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

And now this has gone on too long.

So I will bid thee good afternoon.

ttfn

5:27 AM

Oh, and thankyou for stating that @BrianBallsun-Stanton, though I will say that it hadn't impacted me emotionally. I do have a much better handle on my emotional state.

Night.

ttfn

Conversations about conversations going on too long going on too long @.@ so meta...

We must go deeper.

@Dorian probably what makes the difference is that agentpaper seems to be on the other side of having achieved that (or it sounds like that's the case)

5:29 AM

@Dorian Well, checklists can be helpful in the normal way they're helpful, just not with the specific issue that they're often suggested for in this case.

@Miniman inception.davepedu.com

@AgentPaper Ah right, I see what you mean now.

@Dorian this button has improved the quality of my life

3

@Dorian So hard not to press big red buttons...I must resist till I get home from work...

Nov 21 at 4:05, by Brian Ballsun-Stanton

::very low:: Guaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmm

@Miniman nooooooooooooooo.com

(psst, that one's a medium sized blue button ;) )

5:35 AM

@Dorian aha! easily resistable!

Is there a button for this guy?

these sites are fun to include sometimes (android app bug report below):

12

Q: Let us flag answer comments too!

I have no idea whether this is a bug - something's broken - or a feature request for a missing feature that should be there, so I'm tentatively tagging this as both. On Android App 1.0.24, we have the ability to flag comments. That's great! However, we can only do so for comments on a question. ...

bug status-completed android-app comment-flags

@BESW I can't find one unfortunately.

Maybe you can be the one to make it! :D

@Dorian: you are very much not alone

Just had a bloody heart attack. Hardwood floors above me, everyone's gone to bed, it's dead silent, and a large heavy silver oval platter slides off of the bar stool where it was left, hits the ground, and rolls a bit before settling down.

Where it was located is directly above me

So it hit the ground hard a mere 4-5 feet from me.

5:46 AM

@Pixie if you're there: is mineocity still having sales/discounts/whatever? My friend can't find them.

Startled the living crap out of me.

Oh jeez. That's an unwelcome fright...

[welcome frights yet to be discovered]

@doppelgreener When you watch a movie you know will scare you and you do it anyway for the thrill.

@doppelgreener Holy crap! A million dollars just landed on my head!

(Sadly, a purely hypothetical example.)

@Dorian hmm, granted :P

5:49 AM

Or when you read this comic and know what will happen already.
http://comic.naver.com/webtoon/detail.nhn?titleId=350217&no=31&weekday=tue

Warning, not for the faint of heart.

Also, use the scroll wheel for the full effect.

Welcome frights are when the monster pops out after building up a ton of tension. Having the fright releases all the tension you built up in expectation.

If you just keep building up tension forever it gets really stressful.

It's been a long long time since I've had the courage to re-read that comic by the way.

@AgentPaper I've played games like that.

I can't even get past the first page lol

Where are we in the StackExchange day?

5:51 AM

It's basically how all good horror games and movies work. Extra Credits did an episode on Tension and Release recently based on it.

@AgentPaper There are some that build up tension really well and never actually give you a good jump, it's all tension.

@Miniman the stack exchange clock is on Zulu time / UTC+0, so it's... 5:53am

@doppelgreener Balls. I've already got 150 rep today.

@Dorian Yeah, and they probably do that on purpose. It can be good in it's own way, though more stressful and less satisfying usually. Bad horror just skips to the jump scares with little or no buildup.

@doppelgreener But thanks, now I know how to check!

5:55 AM

Gah. Work internet has been randomly refusing to connect to sites ("Connection reset by peer", not blacklisted). I only just got on to chat now!

@Adeptus: bumpy net :/

@AgentPaper Good high tension horror media doesn't need a jump scare really, you make your own jump scares lol. I remember there was this glowing review for one of the oculus games that was all tension and ambiance. The game was quite short, but it built tension so flawlessly that the slightest thing would scare the crap out of you.

Oh yeah, it's great for scaring. The jump scare isn't really there to scare at all, actually, but to release the tension by resolving the situation. It will often leave you less scared than you were before.

@Dorian: agreed -- your average elf would be teeth-on-edge if he found himself standing in a foggy Bailey Yard all of a sudden, and the only looming monsters there are the railcars getting switched around!

If you just want to scare the shit out of someone, then you never have a jump scare. But most people don't want to be scared that much.

5:58 AM

@Miniman also useful: go to profile, hover your mouse over your activity. all timestamps reveal the server time behind the timestamp.

user image

... pretend there's a cursor over the 'just now', it seems to have disappeared in the screenshot

@AgentPaper True. But it really depends on the type of thing. I know I'm not much of a person to like scares. I also know that if I get into that fearful mode from something I'll likely stay in it for hours.

Even if the tension is released in the media.

@doppelgreener Ooh, nice tip!

Though I tend not to be frightened by most American/Popular horror content.

I need a good Psycho Horror or a Japanese Horror to really get me going.

@doppelgreener Return tip: screenshots don't record the cursor (unless you have a program that changes the way screenshots work)

@Dorian: yeah -- I should watch "The Birds" sometime though

6:00 AM

@Miniman I use Greenshot, which does, except it buggers up the text cursor.

Heck, I grew up in a family of metal heads who watched stuff like hellraiser, freddy, jason, and any other monster/slasher flick they could find. I'm so desensitized on that crap it isn't even funny anymore.

@doppelgreener I was like...I wonder if Snipping Tool includes the cursor? Hey, wait a minute...

@Dorian: I agree re: slasher/monster flicks though -- those are just dumb

Hellraiser is interesting due to the unusual imagry and concepts, but that's about as far as it goes. Kinda like how American McGee's Alice is interesting.

What kid do you know wouldn't bat an eye to see Freddy Krueger show up in his dreams? :P

@Miniman haha, it couldn't very well do so...

6:02 AM

I was the kind of kid who would welcome him, shake his hand even, and probably get a thrill out of torturing him in my own dreams.

@Dorian Freddy Krueger?

yeah -- I have daydreams about what would happen if Jason Vorhees ran into a couple of my characters @Dorian -- it's not pretty for him

Fred "Freddy" Krueger is the main antagonist of the A Nightmare on Elm Street film series. He appears in Wes Craven's A Nightmare on Elm Street (1984) as a burnt serial killer who uses a glove armed with razors to kill his victims in their dreams, causing their deaths in the real world as well. In the dream world, he is a powerful force and almost completely invulnerable to damage. However, whenever Freddy is pulled into the real world, he has normal human vulnerabilities. Krueger was created by Wes Craven, and had been consistently portrayed by Robert Englund since his first appearance. In the...

@Dorian No, I mean Freddy Krueger wouldn't have been surprised to see himself in his own dreams

@Miniman Aah.... I said kid :P

6:04 AM

@Dorian Everyone was a kid once

@Shalvenay It'd be more along the lines of teasing him incessantly. I mean come on, dude thinks he's the boss in the dream world...

@Dorian -- aaah. my line of thinking with Jason is one of my characters going "Dude, yo -- you know nothing about that blade in your hand"

I was already in full control of lucid dreaming whenever I felt like it when I was 10. Still can, just don't like to because it's kinda boring. I like partial lucid dreaming though, when I know I'm in a dream but my subconscious constructs the world and the "laws" and I just keep breaking them.

@Miniman Freddy the serial killer (or dream killer) didn't exist when Freddy Krueger was an actual kid.

Also, I don't feel fear in dreams, never have as long as I can remember. I've felt plenty of pain though. Plenty. ~~Doesn't help that I have a spirit that follows me around and likes to occasionally torment me in my dreams.~~

Ignore strikethrough if you're a skeptic, or just don't wanna hear my crazytalk lol

@Dorian: odd dreams, heheh

I have a running voice in my head at most times in bed -- but actual visual dreams are rare for me

I've had some pretty twisted dreams though... Some of which I'm still having a hard time convincing myself weren't real. Many of which would probably make Clive Barker wet himself.

@Shalvenay I have constant vivid dreams unless I go out of my way to suppress them or I'm just so bloody tired that everything shuts down.

Also, I'm a bit of a sleep-gamer. IDK how often I've fallen asleep with a game controller in my hand and woken up hours of gameplay later not knowing wtf happened.

6:09 AM

hahaha

you really wouldn't want to do that with some of the sims I've gotten the chance to use in the past

I have a dream catcher over my bed too. That doesn't keep away ~~the sadistic little girl that's been following me/connected to me as long as I can remember~~ but it does keep away other unwanted interference usually. I need to get a better one though, this one was a small freebie and is rather mass-produced and cheaply made of artificial materials. One of these days I want to make a nice big one myself.

It also helps me from wandering away from my body at night when I don't really want/need to.

academia.edu/4807374/…

and yes, I have had the chance to sit down at a full-blown locomotive simulator -- as well as a couple runs with a RCL sim

nice lol

@doppelgreener They are I'm pretty sure, they just usually put the codes up in their Minecraft Forum thread. I will fetch it.

I just noticed we went that entire standing orders question without ever mentioning Abused Gamer Syndrome, which is something that is probably pretty relevant...

6:23 AM

DARKNEEEEESSSSSSS!

@Pixie Thank you!

@doppelgreener Code in big red letters at the top here! minecraftforum.net/forums/servers/minecraft-server-hosting/…

Who has dared to have a tier conversation in my absence?

@Lord_Gareth oops

XD

6:26 AM

@Metool INFIDEEEEEEEEL

[throws flint in the summoning circle]

@Dorian, come forth!

So I survived, uh, Black Thursday. Gotta work again tomorrow.

@Pixie Eck, good luck.

@Metool Dorian is not here right now, please leave a message at the thunderstrike. If you do not wish to leave a message, please try your summons again later.

BOOM

[@Lord_Gareth poke]

6:31 AM

THE OTHER BLASPHEMER!

@doppelgreener: I wonder if I have the opposite problem sometimes :P I can get very insistent on keeping track of some fiddly bits (ammo is a common one for me) that most folks don't bother with

@Metool It's really not as bad as people make it out to be, assuming you're able to get some rest beforehand.

[Unleashes an unstoppable tide of unused D12s]

it can take a fair bit of DM insisting to get me to not track ammo

@Shalvenay Carrying capacity?

6:32 AM

@Pixie Thank you. Her reaction was: "THOSE SNEAKY [fudge]ERS"

@Shalvenay Conveniently enough, most of the games I've been in didn't care about mundane ammo, they assumed you had it unless you were far from a source of ammo for quite a while.

@Dorian: my 2e and 5e games don't track it, my 0e game sort-of-tracks it though

And my stealth archer had one arrow. Specifically, it was a Raptor Arrow

@Pixie Do you know what the difference is between Mineocity's 'budget hosting' and their 'minecraft hosting' plans? It seems to just be the static IP

@Shalvenay I don't necessarily care as much about ammo (as the rest of the group doesn't care that much either, including the GM), but I reeeally like... stuff and things. I like deciding exactly what little mundane bits my character is lugging around. Gear kits are not for me. :v

6:32 AM

Never needed more than one.

Watchu want @Metool? I take it you didn't realize that was a joke.

from the MMO side -- the proto-MMO I play has all sorts of issues with ranged weapon damage and progression that cause archers to burn through ridiculous amounts of ammo (closets of the stuff, I tell you!)

@doppelgreener Haha, yeah, I guess you could call it sneaky, but Minecraft Forum is one place MC hosts get a lot of their new users, so they all tend to do special promotions there. And as far as I can tell, that's the only difference (that's all they state). Oh, and location possibly.

whereas the other MMO I play does a pretty sane job of ammo handling, all things considered

I usually make a point to have unlimited sources of various essential consumables or some sort of alternative.

@Dorian Oh, totally did.

6:34 AM

@Dorian -- don't ever be the guy who forgot to pack Tech One crystals for his ship's lasers, then :P

Everlasting Rations, Everfull Mug, Ring of Sustenance, Returning

so @Lord_Gareth, what's this about tier conversations?

@Metool Mostly me being upset that I missed out on an in-progress conversation and then also going "Wat" at the T3 Warlock idea.

@Dorian Don't forget a bottle of air.

@Metool If that becomes an issue I plan for a Greater Ring of Sustenance

6:37 AM

@doppelgreener You get a choice of USA or Europe as your location on a regular plan, but you don't get that choice on a budget plan (I think budget are all New York).

@Dorian Only place I can find that from a cursory glance at the Google is dandywiki.

Or wait, wasn't there a Ring of Sustenance or something that eliminated the need to breathe as well?

There was an improved version or something that eliminated sleep and breathing.

There's a necklace of adaptation.

There are also class features that allow it lol

Or just be a warforged and don't worry about any of it from the start.

6:39 AM

dandwiki.com/wiki/…

Though the Wiki is sketchy sometimes, that's about what I remember it (and it doesn't say that's a homebrew page)

@Dorian Category:User's description is...

> This category is for all items considered "Homebrew"

@Pixie thanks :) so static IP and server location choice... i take it as a budget plan you don't get something like a pixie.mineocity.com domain for your server?

and you'd have to keep people up to date on the IP?

@Metool Oh, I always look for the "Homebrew" category o.o

From what I recall, dnd-wiki has standards that dandywiki might not.

Of course, it's also mostly homebrew, so that point is moot as well.

@Metool one way to read that is you're asserting dandwiki of having no standards

;)

but then again it is a wiki full of user content, and it seems to be exactly the case

6:45 AM

Now you have me on a quest...

also -- I was reading Brian's meta answer on ideographic vs nomothetic systems/play, and I wonder if the problems I keep running into in the proto-MMO I play and RP in are mostly due to the combination of the existing community being strongly ideographic with me not having a reality remotely close to most of what the rest of the community shares

A quest?

I know there was an improvement on the ring I just can't find it...

@doppelgreener Yep. I think they used to include an alias (whatever.something.com) with non-dedicated IPs, but that could be a different host I'm thinking of. It's probably more trouble than it's worth with a non-static IP since they set it up manually if you ticket them, if I'm remembering right. She could ask though.

I tried reading that ideographic vs nomothetic thing, and I couldn't make heads or tails of it.

I read up on them in the wiki, and I kinda understand what they mean normally, but I've no idea how they apply to games.

6:47 AM

@doppelgreener My IP has changed a couple of times, but only when they were upgrading their equipment. Definitely not a frequent change and for a good reason, so I can't complain too much.

@Pixie yeah, i imagine they wouldn't offer it since it defeats the need for a static ip ;)

you don't need a static IP if you have a static web address!

@doppelgreener One of the ones I've had totally did offer it, and I'm fairly sure it was them. I had it set up once, and it worked. xD But I'm pretty sure I would have had to get them to manually change it every time the IP changed.

@AgentPaper -- ideographic basically means "our shared media-model takes precedence over the rules", where as nomothetic is the other way around, where the rules come first, and the shared media-model gets tossed if the rules don't agree

@Shalvenay Ah, that makes a lot more sense. Perhaps you should submit an answer to the meta-question.

@AgentPaper - How goes your progress on the archive binge?

6:51 AM

I might toss Brian an abstract for his proto-paper even

@doppelgreener I use their SRD section regularly. It's one of the nicer formatted ones that I've found. I generally stay clear of the non-SRD stuff...

So then, in basic terms, it's RAW versus RAI?

Or at least, that's one manifestation of the conflict.

@AgentPaper RAW vs. RAI is about the designers.

This is more "Rules-heavy" vs. "Rules-light" or maybe "Rules-flexible"

It's about the rules as they are versus the world that the rules are trying to capture.

@AgentPaper -- what Lord_Gareth said -- RAW/RAI is about the designers themselves

what you said is correct -- rules as they are is nomothetic -- world the rules are trying to capture is ideographic

6:54 AM

@AgentPaper "Rules as Written" vs. "Rules as Intended" can pretty much only ever be about what the designers wrote vs. what the designers wanted.

Which has nothing to do with obedience to the rules vs. obedience to the social construct.

You can agree on RAW and then ignore it, f'rinstance.

Can't find it :( Guess either maybe I used that version, or someone ruled an improved version or something.

@Lord_Gareth "The rule that we're not going to use says <X>"?

@Adeptus Pretty much. "This rule states X, which is why we're not using it."

Heck in one game our party of lv1 characters that were hired by a local old man in a tavern (yes, he used that trope =_=) were all gifted Rings of Sustenance which didn't count towards our expected WBL at all.

All because the DM didn't want to have to worry about us bothering with food unless we wanted to XD

Whereas Shalv is talking more about how much the group values the rules, regardless of their "official" nature.

I can run an all-RAW homebrew campaign where we use the straight text of the homebrew, for example.

And that's valuing the rules in the campaign's execution.

@Shalvenay Do tell me if any any point you feel I stop being correct.

6:58 AM

Run all RAW Epic Mythic "Cthulhu in a Power Armor" homebrew campaign where everyone is ponies.

I would play the Friendship out of that campaign.

3

@Lord_Gareth: that happened in our 0e game -- we basically agreed that "your weapon breaks on crit fail" is unreasonable for melee weapons and proceeded to houserule a -1 penalty instead -- works a treat

I still don't see how RAI is about anything other than making rulings based on your shared (in this case with the designers) view of what the world "should be".

@Lord_Gareth: you're hitting the nail on the head

@Dorian Haha. Rather than giving us rings of sustenance, most GMs I've had have just said "don't worry about it, assume you have enough food."

@AgentPaper Because if your idea of what the world 'should be' is not related to the designer's idea, you're not in RAI.

7:00 AM

@Pixie This was one who wanted a legit reason why this band of newb adventurers hadn't eaten in weeks and is still alive lol.

One time I was actually having fun going through the Arms and Equipment Guide and breaking down what I had (again, that kind of thing just amuses me), a DM seemed to have thought I was stressing over it and made it super clear cut that we just weren't bothering. xD

@Pixie: I prefer to make food part of the game -- but I also am A-OK with RPing out a few encounters designed to provide sustenace to the party

@Dorian Haha, yeah, I mean that's one way to handle it.

RAI is rather specifically interpreting a rule or set of rules in a way that either you feel the designers say it should be or that the designers have actually said it should be.

Though I have had many campaigns where cheap consumables such as food, water, ordinary arrows, and the like were all considered infinite and weightless unless we were wandering the desert for weeks at a time or something.

7:01 AM

If you do neither of those things, you are not engaging in RAI or an attempt thereat

"you catch a dire boar rooting through your camp"

So I guess then what I should say is that they can intersect, rather than them being the same thing.

In other words, the only time food or ammo became a problem was when it was significant to the story/situation.

Simulationism is also not inherently RAI in any way. F'rinstance, FATE is a game with no simulationism, so using the rules therein to model a realistic world would in fact be at cross-grains with the game's RAI.

*one combat later* "Feel free to carve up the boar and smoke/salt rations from it -- 1 week if you feast now, 2 if you're stingy about things"

7:02 AM

@Dorian Yeah, that's more the stance most of my GMs have taken, considering it reasonable that we would have come by food and ammo one way or another unless we were in a situation where it would make no sense.

@Lord_Gareth: FATE can sit over an external simulation though

@Shalvenay Certainly.

Though I still make a point to get magic rations/water just in case. I also often play the type of character who might have to sneak around/hide/be separated from the party/be unable to retrieve sustenance somehow for extended periods.

@Shalvenay That can be fun, too. Just depends on the focus of the game.

More often than not I'm slotted as the party rogue/scout/skillmonkey.

It's something I've been trying to break away from for a while.

Even my evil campaign, in which I thought I was breaking from it... I picked a class that was essentially a more sneaky/spellcasty and less nature oriented Ranger type of class...

7:05 AM

@Pixie: yeah, it's something I've done in 0e several times as well as in 2e

@Dorian: I actually play a heavy plated stealth scout in Eve Online :P

I picked the Inquisitor, thinking it was something else. Then once I realized it was a divine skillmonkey style class (instead of a divine gishy type which I thought it was for some odd reason) I stuck with it because I liked the chara idea I had.

cloaky Proteus says that heavy armor is not necessarily a barrier to stealth

@Shalvenay I've built a tank/sneak once. Wasn't half bad.

yeah -- the tradeoff in the Proteus' case is you wind up with half the norm of the DPS

err of DPS

It was good at tanking when the primary tank couldn't make it, sturdier than the casters, and stealthier than the rest. Worked out well for what I made it for.

7:07 AM

yeah, in the right system, that can work well

Which was essentially scouting around and protecting the casters. He didn't fight much.

But he did occasionally smack someone with Sneak Attack when he had a chance lol

in my case, while I can take out squishy stuff solo in the Proteus -- it's more to sneak up on someone and grab them for the rest of the fleet to devour

I also find the 'casters must be squishy' thing to be a bit obnoxious

from a PvP perspective -- what stops that pack of Kobolds over yonder from ignoring the fighter and targeting you with their crossbows?

He even had a good IC reason to worry about protecting the casters... The wizard of the party had something over him ensuring his protection (long story short, needed a certain item back and the wizard never kept it on him) and he had a bit of a crush on the cleric.

Though the cleric was pretty sturdy herself.

(this is true for straight healers in some environments too, albeit thankfully not for D&D clerics)

Well, that depends on the actual Fighter build.

Are they DPS or Tank?

Because not all Fighters are Tanks.

Tanks don't worry about fighting, they worry about attracting attention.

7:11 AM

@Dorian: Tank, yes -- but I'm more asking about threat modeling here

I made alot of use out of my Bluff/Intimidate checks with that sneaktank

Yes, smarter enemies are very likely to go for the squishy casters in the back.

because not all NPC models respond the same way to threats

But that's not what the Tank is there for. The example you gave, kobolds, well, a good solid insult and some goading will get every kobold and their mother on one dude.

@Dorian -- not in my 0e game -- my DM there plays it that the NPCs just attack whatever attacked them last; if it's the caster, so be it

Though the point of a Tank in D&D isn't so much attracting all the attention, it's more attracting most of the attention, long enough for the Wizard to get off their control spells.

@Shalvenay That is a very unwise battle strategy...

7:14 AM

@Dorian depends on the edition you're using

OTOH: my main arcane caster in that game is a elven lady who wears scalemail and swings a smith's hammer as her primary weapon as she's a blacksmith by trade

the tank concept isn't always applicable to RPGs easily

@doppelgreener -- yes. there are also MMOs where it doesn't hold

Eve Online Sleeper AI is a classic case where you simply can't just rely on a straight tank

@doppelgreener Tactically. Period. Why? Because if damage is spread out amongst the party the party won't fall so easily. If the enemy is smart enough to go for the biggest threat, they should.

in 4e, the equivalent of a tank is a defender. if you're picking a fighter, you're probably not defending by drawing attention, you're defending by locking down the enemies' ability to move or shoving them too far away to do much.

whether the enemies pay attention to you or not isn't so important - they're still not going to be able to do as much; job done

7:16 AM

they are taunted heavily by remote repairs and electronic warfare, which means that they're as likely to go after your logistics (healers) as anything else

Well the best tank I have in my current 3.5 game is the trip god.

Though technically everyone goes after the DPS hulk warblade, the Trip God controls the battlefield.

fortunately -- paired logistics cruisers in Eve can withstand quite heavy fire without complaining

they have a tiny signature radius, not much larger than ships a full size class smaller

The Dragon Age threat counter is interesting... There are threat management abilities that increase threat on a specific target, first target sighted adds a huge amount of threat too, each attack adds threat, heavier armor adds threat...

excellent resistances

Then there's one ability for fighters and rogues to reduce threat, mages don't get to reduce threat.

A mage casts a fireball in an area, expect to have everyone target the mage.

7:18 AM

and the ability to mount enough buffer to not get alphaed off the field

And nondamaging spells such as Paralyze and the like are annoying because they almost always guarantee threat will be focused on the caster.

(well, in small to intermediate-scale fights at least)

In D&D, there are plenty of aura/skill/class feature/feat/spell choices to get enemies to target one specific target.

yeah -- D&D is long on hard/firm taunts

And the job of a good mage isn't to do damage, but is to control the battlefield. Those that aren't targeting the tank should be disabled.

And Clerics are great for that.

7:19 AM

@Dorian If by "plenty" you mean "exactly 2 in any edition that is not 4e"

hrm, or maybe?

@Dorian: battlefield control is interesting

but I have to bail

Get a good support cleric to control the battlefield with various AoE spells (and have buffs and healing for when its needed), a good sturdy Tank, and a good battlecaster with some battlefield control and a good amount of heavy spells, that three man party can take on almost any challenge.

Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades is pretty much 100% of the actual tanking abilities in 2.5

3.5*

Everything else is battlefield control

Tripping, AoE, grease, et

Add to that a good skillmonkey/jack-of-all-trades for the more skillful needs and you're good to go.

Yeeeees. Controoool.

7:22 AM

Which is why the minimum "recommended" party is 4 characters.

@Dorian -- battlefield control is an art form all its own -- Eve taught me that if nothing else

The game was built for a balanced Tank/Healer/Damager/Skill group.

@Dorian [Citation needed]

Intended, sure.

Speaking of battlefield control, my flying mutant kobold warlock just got Chilling Tentacles ;)

Built implies a level of purposeful construction that I have trouble crediting to WotC or Paizo.

2

7:23 AM

Also he just got Hellfire Blast.

So now I can trap foes in a field of cold tentacle rape while I smack them in the face with Hellfire.

Conveniently enough, he's also a Good aligned character.

"SINNER! I will give you a sampling of what you have earned in the next world!"

hahaha :D and the Pally joins him in piling on ;)

@Shalvenay Actually yes. The Trip God's player has many reasons in and out of character to retire the character, and is bringing in a "rough and ready paladin" to replace him.

I just need to convince my DM to allow me to get my hands on a way to shape my Chilling Tentacles so the charging paladin doesn't eat 2d6 cold damage per round, slowed movement, and possible grappling...

Hmm maybe get him cold resistance...

Also, I need to convince the DM to allow this homebrewed ruling for Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion I found...

Just because the name of the spell lmao

I was actually rather disappointed by the effect, though it was pretty balanced for a 4th level spell.

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